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  • Dont disagree....they haven't hit a HR in the draft since Barkley has been an injury mess.

    I think Slayton is borderline there. He's on track for a 1000 yards, 10 TDs, and averaging 15+ yards per reception this year. He's probably not a top 10 receiver in the league, but I think you can start to make a pretty good argument he's top 15 or at worst top 20....but yeah given the number of picks they've had and the number of 1st round picks you'd really rather not hang your hat on a 5th round guy.

    Biggest issue I have with the Giants draft is just that 5 of our high level targets the last 3 years - Baker, Thomas, Hernandez, Barkley, McKinney - flat out suck or can't get on the field. As much as I killed Reese for finding 0 talent in rounds 3+....I gotta kill Dave for waaaay too many misses in rounds 1-2. Think about, I know we want impact players there, but if even those guys were just "average" but actually on the field for 15-16 games how much better would this team be?

    We're on a 4th string CB next to Bradberry....off the scrap heap RB...Hernandez is killing any chance for Thomas to get better and Thomas is killing Jones. That's the issue right now...I'm still honestly stunned how bad Thomas is and how bad Hernandez has become in 2 years. I'm a little miffed at Judge for not trying something different - I had hope in the "suspension game" that Judge was willing to setup a kind of platoon or try to maybe even move Thomas to the right side for a bit, but then he went right back to Thomas playing pretty much all the snaps. I don't want to bury the kid, but it can't be helping him to just get owned week after week. Thus far really despite a 1-6 record thats the only thing that I think Judge has handled poorly. Maybe by the end of the year or next year someone can dig up this post to make me eat crow, but I do think we've found our best coach / coaching staff since the highs of the Coughlin era.

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    • I think you'll see some changes this week, mainly because they played on Thursday and it gives them a few more days to change some things up. There's been a few things popping up about Peart for Flemming this week. Question is do you keep running Thomas out there at LT and hope things start clicking? I think you have to keep him on the field and hope he turns a corner.

      The other question is if they move Zeitler, like a lot of people expect, what they'll do with the OL. A few options with Peart and Lemieux. I'm not sure you'll see a lot of difference with Thomas as a RT at this point vs what he's showing at LT. This isn't the old NFL where it was speed on the left and strength on the right. I'd be open to shifting some of the line and moving Thomas inside for the remaining games. He gets some experience playing, Giants get to evaluate him inside, and Peart gets on the field. If you put him at RG (in place of Zeitler) and he plays well you have the ability to move him to RT and give Lemieux some time later in the season. It all comes down to I haven't see anything this year that shows Thomas can deal with the outside speed in the NFL.

      Early picks have been abysmal with Gettleman. You can't fault him for McKinney at this point since it was a foot injury and I don't think he was injury prone in college. The other picks haven't panned out. I'll still say that not listening to potential offers for Barkley before he was drafted, as good as he can be and injury aside, was the beginning of the problems. They could have added multiple picks to a team that needed them and instead they drafted and paid a RB on a team who was just starting a rebuild. He's hit on a couple late round guys, mainly Slayton who's a top end #2 WR IMO, but while he's grabbed some solid guys he hasn't added any game changers other than Barkley and he's had a lot of early picks to do that.

      Lombardi on his podcast said in his opinion the issue with hiring Judge is primarily that he doesn't have much experience running either side of the ball so he can't really go down and tell Garrett or Graham what changes he wants done to those groups. Lombardi feels he has to give those guys a lot more authority then coaches who have a background on either side of the ball. It makes some sense but I think Judge has actually done well considering his experience. Just a view point from a guy who's no longer a GM. He also has no faith in Garrett as an OC. I know you think he's done some things well but I keep thinking he knows his LT is struggling badly and hasn't done a lot to try and help him out.

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      • Shumur was supposedly an offensive mind, but he never did anything to help Solder out. Flowers was a turn style before that, no one helped him out. I think its more just the modern NFL they don't keep extra guys in often.

        I'd still flip Thomas to the RT side....not so much because its going to help Thomas, but because it WILL help Jones and his fumbles. I know there's concerns that he hasn't played it recently...BUT he has played it in the past and don't forget after being drafted he was going to be the RT while Solder played out his last year with the team. I'd do it. The biggest thing with Thomas is they can't let his draft position influence where he plays....let him go to the right...BUT another year of this and they need to seriously consider moving him inside...something they REFUSED to do with Flowers

        Zietler has to go for whatever....I'd be happy with a 5th. Some folks think he could net even more...whatever

        I still don't mind the Barkley pick because I believe trade back was never on the table. I'm convinced it was Barkley or go straight rebuild with Darnold who has sucked....Barkley's talent plus Mara's wishes kind of made that decision. I lump him, Baker, and McKinney into the same bucket - we don't know how good they can / could have been because they aren't playing. None of them had injury flags or ya know felonies.....I dont know that any are really his "fault" (Baker is honestly the one that annoys me the most, but whatever) it just adds to a really poor resume of 1st and 2nd round picks. Its almost like the Giants need to bring back Reese to run the first 2 rounds - not that he was perfect there (flowers), but most were good players. Then let Gettleman run the rest of the draft

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        • Hernandez tests positive for COVID. Unless it's a false positive he'll be gone for Monday's game.

          Looks like we'll all get our wish to see Lemieux. Downside is this could put the dampers on potentially trading Zeitler by Monday as I'm not sure there's another G on the roster that can step in unless the plan would be to move Gates to G and plug Pulley in at center.

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          • I didn't mind the Barkley pick if they had to stay at #2. The main problem I had at the time and still do is that they rushed to make the pick and didn't seem to even try to field calls for it. If I remember correctly the Giants only used 6-7 minutes of the 15 allotted to them before making the pick and some thought they only took that long because of how the TV format is. There was no harm in listening to what teams might have offered before taking him. I'm not arguing that Barkely wasn't the top 1-2 players in the draft. Only that they gave of the perception that they weren't even fielding offers. it will always be hard for me to believe that there wasn't a team who would have at least discussed jumping the Jets for Darnold at the time when most felt he was the top QB in the draft.

            This part from the daily news sums up my issue:

            Clearly Gettleman believes Barkley is the future Hall of Famer he was looking for, and as I wrote many times, the Giants never were seriously considering a trade back as far as No. 12 with Buffalo, since this No. 2 pick and a chance at a star player was their only reward for that 3-13 disaster in 2017.

            Still, if a team like the Denver Broncos — rumored to have been pursuing a possible trade up — had been willing to sell out for Darnold at two, that could have been worth it. Gettleman remarkably admitted on a Giants.com video, though, that "once Cleveland took Baker, I told our guys don't even waste your time. We're taking Saquon."

            And he said he would have submitted the pick two seconds into the Giants' 10 minute allotted time slot, except the NFL required him to wait for TV purposes.



            You're right, the new NFL is about putting everyone out into patterns and spreading the defense out rather than helping with protection. It doesn't make sense to me but I'm just a fan who's seeing Thomas get beat routinely and can't figure out why there's not a TE over there that's chipping or helping him block these guys.
            Last edited by dak11; 10-29-2020, 12:41 PM.

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            • I'm with ya on the help Dak...but again its kinda like our Engram discussion - a bunch of different coaches a bunch of different staffs havent done it, havent figured it out so dunno what to say beyond that.

              This Hernandez thing is a blessing IMO. Gets Shane on the field to take a look. Gets Hernandez off. Probably gets Peart out there as well. Gets a look at all of them. Might help clear any reservations of potentially trading Zeitler as well if Shane plays 1/2 decent. Sounds like Will has to miss 2 weeks too so again get to see a real compare / contrast

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              • Giants played a solid game. A game which most felt the Giants would get killed they were in it all night and should have sent it to OT.

                Jones still not playing well. Another couple turnovers, missed throws, and just not reading things well. Tonight wasn't about him getting time in the pocket since the OL played really well outside of a couple missed assignments. I'm not saying they need to start thinking QB for the draft but if Judge is like Bellichek he's not going to be OK moving forward with a turnover prone QB. Jones has 8 more games to show improvement or Justin Fields might start entering the equation. There was an article that was written the other day that said he's playing so well this year that he could challenge Lawrence as the top pick overall.

                Lemieux seemed to click with Thomas. Maybe it was that Thomas was playing mostly against JPP who's more strength than speed at this point but his blocking was really good tonight. Seems that they were able to run the ball really well too against one of the better run defending teams. I don't see them rushing Hernandez back at this point given how well the left side played and if Zeitler is dealt I'd seriously consider moving Hernandez to the right side then mess with what we saw last night.

                Gates is coming along. He's been a ton better than early in the season.

                Gallman, and Morris, both ran hard last night. Both are plodders but Gallman reminds me a little of Lewis Tillman. Not a game breaker but seems to continually get positive yardage when he's given the ball.

                Slayton could have had a big night if Jones played better. I don't think he'll ever be that top 15 WR which teams have to game plan around for but he's just outside of that group.

                Defense continues to play really well. Graham continues to get the most of of these guys. Martinez and Bradberry have been nice additions but the guy who's made the most change is Williams on the D-line. Still a dumb trade but he's played like a Probowl guy this year in this D. He's been a force and on pace for his best season since 2016. I'm not sure what his price tag will be but he's turning into a priority to resign this off season. As odd as it sounds, the D actually has some decent players on it.

                This season is going as well as it could, outside of the Jones and Thomas struggles so far this season. Continue to play just good enough to lose so that there's another high pick coming but also show that the team is close to turning the corner.

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                • Could explain a lot if Hernandez has been a significant part of the issue all along. Not that Solder was ever really a pro-bowler, but he was never as bad as he's been here....so no argument for me on Hernandez. If nothing else they'll get 1 more week together to see if it continues. Either way this was Thomas' best game since week 1 (where I know his PFF wasn't good, but I thought he played decent then). Fingers crossed it continues - this line could go from disaster to strength pretty quickly if Thomas comes along.... Plug Peart in. Let Lemieux play....

                  Gates isn't missing assignments as much which is huge, but he's still not moving the pile...he's still getting pushed back more than driving forward. He's gone from really bad to Pulley-esque mediocre, but yes he's learning on the job and progressing. Lets see how the last 8 games go.

                  This one was pretty much all on Jones....those 2 INTs were just bad and there was at least 2 others that probably should have been picked as well...no other way to say it. Could you complain that the play calling should have dialed up Gallman's number a bit more? I guess - but if Jones connects on any of the 4-5 deep balls he tossed up there poorly - no one cares. He was just off.

                  The Fields conversation isnt worth having until the end of the year - I've been steadfast no there, but folks are right his play is crazy good right now - the big thing holding me back is look at Baker year 1 vs year 2 and what he's doing now in year 3. Baker had a 90+ QBR with 27 TDs and 14 ints as a rookie - dropped to 75 QBR with 22/21. Now he's back on pace for 90+ and 30/14. Very similar to what Jones is going thru in year 2 here. New coaches. New/terrible line. Lost his top RB. So I'm waiting and seeing what happens. This nonsense in some papers about benching Jones is a joke. You gotta let him play and see what happens by the end of the season.


                  With Fields play think of the haul the Giants could get for a pick thats in play for him.....could finally push this rebuild into the next phase...so I'm pulling hard that Jones can show signs.

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                  • The thing with Baker last year was games 1-8 he was pretty good with around 1900 yards and a 15/9 TD/INT ratio. His numbers didn't go into the toilet until games 9-16 where he went 7/12 to finish the year.

                    I'm not ready to give up on Jones. The next 8 games will play a big role in how I see him for 2021. I just thought I'd see more improvement in his reads, throws, and INT's and if anything it seems to be going to wrong way.

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                    • Those Baker numbers are a little misleading too...he had a 4 week run - (maybe ironically in Nov if Jones finally ups his game) against the Broncos, Bills, the Steelers (with no Ben), and Miami where he racked up 8 TDs and 1 int. His start of the season was BAD, even worse than Jones has been 6 TDs - 12 INTs and his end of season was bad as well as you mentioned.

                      Again we havent seen that "hot streak" from Jones like Baker had for a couple of weeks in Nov, but I think Baker's 2019 is a reason keep watching what happens and not to give up hope even if Jones ends the year say 20 TDs/20 INTs there's a direct season to compare it to. (And yeah I know you're saying the same thing in the end).

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                      • The Giants have been bad for a long time. How many more seasons we going to throw away on what ifs? Remember even if Jones turns it around what is he? His ceiling is that of a middle of the road guy. He's playing like Eli in his bad years. If/when the Giants have a top 2 pick they have to think long and hard at QB.
                        My EntireTeam Sucks...

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                        • Is that his ceiling? If he continues to do a better job of holding onto the ball (which he has - 5 fumbles in 8 games vs 18 in 12) and goes back to a 2:1 INT/TD ratio he had in his rookie year, and continues to use his legs to 600+ rushing yards...that puts him in the discussion as a top 10 QB in this league I think. Yes that's IFs, BUT its IF's that he's done before - just hasn't put it all together.


                          I don't disagree tho - if they get the #2 they've gotta do a long look at Fields because that clearly means Jones never solved his turnovers.... I ultimately think that is going to be taken out of their hands tho. I fully expect them to collect 2-3 more wins this year...Washington and Dallas just suck too much and the Giants have had such bad luck/execution closing out games (lets be honest they could easily have 4 wins right now - they gave away the Dallas, Philly, and TB games - forgetting that they probably should have won vs. the Rams and Bears too).....3-4 wins total likely pushes them out to the #5 pick in the draft area.

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                          • Agreed with Hat. His ceiling is more than middle of the road guy. He's shown flashes that he can be a top 10 QB at times already in his career.

                            Some people just see the flashy new prospect/toy and feel they need it though we need to see how the next 8 games play out before that discussion happens. If there's no improvement that's still not a guarantee they need to go Fields.

                            I wouldn't under estimate Washington. They might actually be the best team in the East, which isn't saying a lot. I do think as bad as Dallas has been that last game is probably a given at this point.

                            On Edit

                            The one thing I will state about Fields. Even if the Giants love him I feel the only way he'd really be an option is if the Giants can flip Jones for a 1st round pick or very early 2nd plus something else. I'm thinking teams like Chicago, Colts, and maybe the 49ers and Falcons could be teams who win too much to be able to get those top draftable QB's but also in desperate need for a quality young QB they can move forward with. Jacksonville also fits that criteria but their first would be too high to move for Jones and they'd probably want to trade up for Fields/Lawrence rather than take a chance on a Jones, even if it means their 2nd plus other players/picks.

                            Last edited by dak11; 11-06-2020, 02:25 PM.

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                            • Hernandez and Pettis activated. Ballentine released.

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                              • Ballentine just seemed to have low fb iq... Or the game is still just moving too fast for him. All the tools are there, the mental side just isn't. That punt play where he had no idea no one was covering him spelled Doom. Too many returns from the end zone that didn't get back even to the 20 too

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