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  • Thomas, and the whole line as a group were terrible again. Jones was running for his life on most drop backs. Hard to really evaluate the QB if he doesn't have much time back there. It's too bad they didn't have that 1 true stud on the line where they could let that guy go 1-on-1 and they could give help to some of the other guys. When everyone is so bad how can you help any of them?

    I agree that Thomas looks really over matched. I did read something recently on him stating that they changed some things with his drop backs this preseason and he hasn't done it consistently yet and they feel that's part of the issue. This article went on to say when he's good with his technique his initial punch has been strong. Personally, it seems like he's guessing on what the DE is going to do. He guesses an inside move and cheats and the DE goes outside, jumps outside and DE spins inside, etc. Problem is that there's no real way to give him a breather unless Flemming or Peart jump to the LT. Question is do you just let him continue to learn on the job and continue to make mistakes since there's no real backup to turn to? I think you need to keep putting him out there and hope things click.

    Another thing with Thomas is he almost looks like what they say about Peart. He seems to be lacking playing strength, though that could also be because he's off balance so much. I'm still very surprised that with all his struggles Garrett rarely, if ever, put a TE over there to help or have the TE or RB chip the DE as a way to help Thomas.

    Positives is the running game was better and Garrett actually threw in a few screens (only took 5 weeks) to try and help the Oline.

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    • And to add insult to injury Herbert looks GREAT in his small sample size and he probably would have been our QB pick if he didn't stay in school one more year. Better than anything Jones has done in any game. In 17 of his 18 games Jones has at least one turnover. Yes the OL is a huge disadvantage, but even when he has time he makes really stupid mistakes and has ZERO pocket awareness. Jones is suspect as hell and it gets worse every week. Hell he looked better last year.
      My EntireTeam Sucks...

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      • Another observation being on Thomas/Jones being discussed online.

        Some are stating that Thomas is having issues with how deep Jones drops. Jones appears to drop and begin to set at 7-8 yards. Then, for some reason, takes another hop backward that puts his drop at 9.5 to 10 yards.

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        • Sounds like excuse making for Thomas tho....he's been reaching and his footwork is bad...whether the QB is in shotgun, 3 yards back, 7 yards back, or 20 yards back isn't going to change that. I havent seen Thomas get beaten on the inside (other than a stunt switch where I blame Hernandez mostly on how they handle handoffs) its pretty much always on the outside. What's saved him a bit is he never gives up and most times can get 1 1/2 decent shove to push a guy just wide, but he's still beat, its still forcing Jones to move, its still collapsing protection.

          Meh Herbert...whatever Jones looked all world last year for big chunks of time so I don't really care about Herbert or any of the QBs drafted this year - I get it we know Getty loved him and he'd probably be the QB but the instant he didn't declare that ended any thoughts of me doing a comparison. Now its just making the decision on who's the QB going forward - honestly given Jones, Mayfield, Haskins, Allen, Rosen, Darnold, Lock, etc that he was aligned with I really can't say he's significantly worse than those guys. Baker has bounced back and Allen has taken a big step, but rewind a year and there were issues.

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          • Hernandez being an overrated bust definitely isn't helping Thomas. Rookie LT's almost always struggle and the struggles for Thomas are for sure amplified by Hernandez's lack of help. Giants are looking at needing 2 new guards fairly soon. Hernandez looking like a guy who won't see the end of his rookie deal.
            My EntireTeam Sucks...

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            • Another Jones bonehead play in the red zone nearly turned this win into a loss. They got lucky Rivera went for 2. I don't think the Giants were winning this one had they just tied it up and played for OT.

              Peart looked decent at LT. I think you gotta consider sliding Thomas over to RT and giving Peart time.... At the very least Peart should be playing instead of Flemming

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              • I was very surprised Rivera went for 2. Washington pretty much won the last 3 quarters of the game, though I'll admit I did fast forward through a bunch of it, and I'm with you on if it went to OT Washington looked like they had the momentum to win the game. I get the whole go for the win mentality but this wasn't like Washington had the chance to beat the Chiefs with that 2 point conversion. They also had a good shot at winning if they went to OT vs the Giants.

                Agree on Peart. He needs to start seeing the field more. Mock drafts are starting to point the Giants towards the OT from Oregon (Sewell). I have a hard time seeing them go that route given they just added Thomas and Peart but it does remind me that Thomas had some red flags where there were some scouts who thought he might need to move to G. Good run blocking but questionable athletics and footwork. Daniel Jeremiah had the below about Thomas so it's possible they could upgrade at LT and move Thomas inside like Washington had to do with Scherff. It's really too early to be looking at the 2021 draft but with Graham having the D play so well that early first round pick is starting to point to the offense again.

                "Thomas is a thick, powerful offensive tackle. In pass protection, he has average foot quickness in his set, but he possesses a powerful punch and strong anchor. He gets in trouble at times because his base is too wide; he lunges and loses balance. He plays with good overall awareness. He is a dominant run blocker. He can uncoil and uproot defenders over his nose and has the strength to wash defenders down the line of scrimmage on down blocks. He is effective working up a level when he can stay on one track, but he struggles to redirect in space. Overall, some teams view Thomas as a guard, but I believe he can hold up at tackle if he improves his balance issues."

                Personally, I wouldn't move Thomas to RT in season without knowing if he's gotten any reps on that side in practice. It's not like he's Willis who played nothing but RT and was moved to LT this year where he's old movements could come back quickly. It's been a few years since Thomas was on the right side and then add in that you'd also be moving Peart to to the left, where he has no, or very little, game playing time out there from college. It's also not like the old NFL where the RT spot was easier. Teams swap DE's all the time based on matchups so I'm not sure moving Thomas would change much in how he'll play.

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                • I'd have no problem going back to the Oline in the draft. They still need a center too....Gates has been better the last 3 games, BUT he's still pretty consistently being pushed around. He's not letting guys completely blow him up, but he's never moving anyone. He's a good guy to have around as I think he can play G, RT, or C all "decently" but not sure he's a starter at any of them. Fleming is a 1 and done. Zietler is gone next year. Hernandez has been bad. You hope Shane Lemieux can step into a guard role next year, but there's still plenty of room and reasons to spend some draft capital on the line again.

                  The major thing to consider tho is they still badly need a pass rusher - while they've gotten by you've got contracts to consider with Thomlinson and Williams up front. They've got a number of 1 year FAs - Fack, Ryan who are playing very well - and the young guys you'd hope would step up - Love, X-Man, Carter - have all been "meh" at best. Cam Brown looks good....man that dude can fly around out there. I loved that pick, I think they need to get he into some pass rushing situations.

                  They also need another WR opposite Slayton as Tate has really looked slow this year, Shepard is just never on the field, and Engram is a waste of space. Lots of holes ....So it'll all depend who's the best guy there

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                  • They could use a pass rusher but keep in mind that Graham comes from the Bellichek school of defense in that you don't need that stud pass rusher as you can provide pressure through scheme, blitz, and coverage. Surprisingly the Giants have been pretty good with sacks so far this year. They have 15 and their pressure % is in the upper 3rd of the NFL this season so while any team could use that #1 pass rusher it doesn't seem to be as big of a need as the previous seasons. The argument to this is that the main guys getting the sacks and playing good D (Fackrell/Williams/Ryan) are all FA's. Who can they keep with the salary cap expected to drop? I'll admit that Williams has played well in this D. It was still a dumb trade but I think he's starting to play like someone the Giants will need to resign which will be at the expense of Tomlinson.

                    I'm not against adding to the OL again. If this team has any chance of competing they need to fix this issue. Dallas picked Smith (9th), Frederick (31st), Zach Martin (16th), and paid Collins as a FA when he passed through the draft over a 4 year span. That turned into arguable the NFL's best OL for years. I also think Gates has shown to improve almost every week at center but he hasn't shown enough to prove he's the long term answer there. He can be evaluated at the end of the season to give a better idea of where he developed to though I'm not someone who looks to spend early round capital on a center. The Giants also only have 5 picks so I'd expect to see Gates back there next year unless he really flops over the rest of the season. Maybe Lemieux can offer some competition next year if he doesn't see time at G.

                    One positive this off season is that they can clear a lot of cap space. Guys like Zeitler, Tate, Solder, Golden, and Flemming should clear a lot of space as a start. The real question will be what Williams will look for given the reduction in salary cap will make franchising him again not an option.

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                    • I always thought it was more about "paying" for that pass rush, but whatever. I think they will very much be in a spot to draft the best player available at the most premium position more so this year than any other just given their lack of picks. Agreed on spending high picks on C - but I think they have to do more there than just turn it over to Gates (at this point - we'll see if he continues to improve - I'd be surprised on him being much better than average given his seemingly lack of strength)

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                      • Probably both that he (Bellichek) doesn't want to pay them and he doesn't view them as a priority. Last decade the only 1st/2nd round pick he used on a DE or rush LB was Chandler Jones and he dealt him after 4 years instead of paying him. Maybe that's partly because of the location of those picks (usually late in the round) but he hasn't drafted DE's much over his time in NE.

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                        • More of the same from the Giants. Usually play a close game but come up short.

                          Offense still not world beaters but Engram again lets the team down. I had hopes for him finally becoming that field stretching TE threat but it just hasn't happened. Hat's probably right that each staff sees that he has the traits to get downfield but he just can't seem to do it when during game time. Some 4.4 speed guys can only run straight at that speed and his issue is that he also can't block very well and is not a reliable receiver. They already picked up the 5th year option so the question is going to be if the potential return in trade will be enough to finally move him. I'd hope for a 3rd rounder but a 4/5th is probably more realistic even with all his potential.

                          Oline continues to stink. Thomas again had trouble. Trouble with speed around the outside and spin moves to the inside again this game. He's starting to make Flowers look good and it's starting to look like he's not quick enough to play tackle and might need to shift inside to guard. Flemming was only marginable better. Strange part was that I didn't notice Peart on the field at all this week. It's unthinkable to think of all the resources added to this line over the last few seasons and it's still this terrible.

                          Jones still has turnover issues and that run was his version of the butt fumble. Great read, run, and then, runs out of gas and trips with a defender not within 10 yards of him. He makes throws that makes you see a top NFL QB but he can't continue turning the ball over. Going to be a tough evaluation this year given that he's constantly under pressure.

                          Glad Gettleman paid Tollolo all that money this off season (3 year $12 mil) for that 1 reception and 13 yards he's produced so far.

                          Defense continues to play well over all given the talent level. It will be interesting of the contribution McKinney will make if/when he returns this year. Initial estimated had his possible return set for 6-8 weeks but I saw something that they think he might be able to return in late November after the Giants bye week.

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                          • Marcus Golden traded to the Cards for a 6th rounder. Hopefully, this is the beginning of moving a lot of guys who aren't long term answers.

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                            • Tollo continues the giants trend of overpaying for blocking TEs who they then rarely use to actually help block. He should be lined up next to Thomas every time he's on the field. I never see him there.

                              Despite the turnovers I think Jones has shown enough to ignore the other QBs in the draft. It's annoying BUT the legs and arm are there. He'll probably always be fumble prone but I believe we're seeing him improve on the decision making the last few weeks. His INT Thursday was 100% on Engram. It hit him between the numbers right in the hands. I don't care how hard the ball is thrown that, just like Jones last pass, it NEEDS to be caught.

                              Despite my frustrations with Engram I wouldn't trade him for less than a 3. You figure he'd go to a contender so it would be a late 3. For a late 4 I'd still rather let him play out his deal and see what you get his last year.

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                              • Totally agree on Jones. Outside of the Giants being so awful that they can get Lawrence you have to give Jones at a minimum another season and you really want to see him with a good offensive line. For 2 years he's been running for his life. You can't fairly evaluate a guy who's constantly under pressure.

                                The main issue in the last few years are that none of the high draft picks have been difference makers or have just flat out played poorly. You want to give Barkley a pass with his injuries but he was Barry Sanders-esq in that unless he broke a big gainer each game he wasn't very consistent. Even in 2018 his production week to week was mostly based on the big play.

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