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  • I think if they end up with the #1 pick (still think the Jets have that locked up but whatever) they almost have to draft Lawrence. Even if Jones ends up bouncing back somewhat. It's a Luck situation almost where everyone kinda agrees this kid is a "generational" QB where even if you have a QB who you like. Can't let that slip thru ...

    As for the rest....I'm not sold. 1. I'm not sold on Fields being top tier. 2. Lets see how the rest of the season plays out for Jones.

    NO QB is going to have much success behind this O-line. Hernandez is officially a bust. He's been such a disappointment. Gates is just not working out. Thomas is a rookie - I know his PFF ratings have been bad, but from what I see on the field I don't think he's been horrible - certainly no worse than Solder was. Zeitler got old really fast - not playing up to his rep. Flemming has been horrible and is showing why he's been kicked around as a backup most of his career. Its amazing that in year 3 with a guy KNOWN for building strong lines the Giants O-line isn't ANY better than it was when Gettleman took over...in fact in at least run blocking its actually worse. Amazingly bad job. I thought that he'd get this year just given all the things tilted against them almost no matter what happened BUT if this area doesn't start to show improvement he's done.

    At this point I'm of the mind set of any top 2-5 picks I'm looking to trade back. Just too many holes. Lawrence would be my ONE exception to that thought and the only way you're getting him is at #1. Then hopefully you can swap Jones for a late first or a couple of 2nds. If you're sitting in a spot to grab Fields I think you can get a haul.

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    • Too early to grade Jones a bust. He has turnover issues like most QB's in the first couple seasons. I'm not claiming Jones will turn into any of these guys but as a comparison Brees had 30 turnovers over his first 28 games played, Rivers sat the first 2 years and then had 33 turnovers his first 32 games, Wentz had 34 turnovers his first 29 games, Stafford had 45 turnovers his first 29 games, and even Brady had 21 turnovers his first 15 games in the league.

      Jones' 29 turnovers over his first 16 games is more extreme than even the recent examples above, outside of maybe Stafford. My main point is that young QB's tend to turn the ball over. If you don't want that to happen then the team usually needs a very good defense where the young QB does not have to take chances (similar to Brady, Roethlisberger, Russel Wilson). Jones currently has a lot of contributing factors he's dealing with while trying to learn to be a young QB. He's on a team with a bad Oline and gets pressure on most drop backs. Very little running game, even when Barkley was healthy to keep teams off balance, and a D who's not very good. He's also learning a new offense, one that seems to want to throw down the field which is not his strength. All 4 of those factors will make it hard on Jones not to have turnovers and that doesn't even get to the quality of WR's he has to throw to. If they were really concerned about the turnovers they'd design the office to mitigate those - more RB/WR screens, short passes, plays to get the ball of of his hands quicker. Issue is that type of offense isn't what Garrett is known for.

      3 games into year 2 is too quick to determine anything about Jones. That evaluation can happen later in the season. I do agree that if they do get the #1 pick they'd need to go Lawrence since this is a QB driven league and any chance you can get a potential star at the position you need to do it. You'd get pennies on the dollar if Jones is dealt but it would be a move that would need to be made. Agree with Hat that the jury is still out on Fields.

      I have been saying that Hernandez and Zeitler have both been bad since last year. I'm not worried about Thomas at this point and I'd even give Gates a bit of a pass given the new position. I don't expect much from Fleming to begin with so I guess he's played about as good as I expected. But, the 2 guys the team were counting on are the main reason this line has been so bad. All this talk about Hernandez being this ProBowl level G is ridiculous. I haven't seen much from the guy since he became a starter that points to that level of play. I wonder how Lemiux has been practicing and learning the offense because at this point I'd seriously start looking at getting him some playing time so see if he can be an upgrade. Same with Peart at RT.

      If you really want to blow things up go Thomas, Lemiux, Pulley, Gates, Peart.

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      • I actually think within the next week or two they need to do just that thing. Honestly as much as I like him (in general) I think they need to get Gates out of the C spot asap...he's just being completely thrown off the ball almost every play...and you have to wonder if this teams continual failures on stunts is just due to his inexperience at C. Same thing happened last year with Pio and then things got a little better on the inside when Pulley came in.

        I chalked up Hernandez and Zeitler's play last year to having a really shitty center and terrible tackles around them - given that both played well the year before. I can't say anything has really changed this year - there's still a terrible center who's getting blown up almost every play and while Thomas has been okay - Flemming has been horrible... BUT its year 2 - no more excuses for those 2 guys with who's around them.....or the communication. They are vets now figure it out.

        I'd give it 1 more week, then get Pulley in there and see if that makes a difference at all. If not, then you're likely sitting at 0-5 -- gut it and put the "future" out there as Dak suggested above.

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        • If you're thinking of benching Hernandez or Zeitler then you'd be better off shopping them and seeing if you can get a mid-round pick for either (or both) before making the move. That would be something Belichek would do. Problem is that we're not the only one's seeing what's happening so I don't think teams will come banging down the door. There's also no going back if these moves and will Gettleman take the hit again and show that he continues to bungle the roster?

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          • I think you could move Zeitler even if you benched him. I don't think anyone in the NFL believes the Giants are bringing him back even had he been playing well. His contract is an easy cut next year - so whatever value he has I think would hold even in a benching - I doubt its much based off his salary and performance - other teams would just look at it as them turning the page early and judge him how they want to judge him.

            Hernandez....I dunno if he has value...but I'd keep him around even if I bench him. 1.5 mil for even a backup guard isn't a bad value. I'd rather have him at that price than like a 5th rounder (hard to see who would give up more than that).

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            • Not sure if you listen to the podcast "The GM Shuffle" with Mike Lombardi but he did a little part on the Giants and why they are so bad. They actually mention a telling stat about how bad when they say that the last 3 seasons W/L record is worse than the 3 years around the Brown's winless season.

              He goes on to reference when Mara was forced to hire George Young. Young came from the Dolphins with the philosophy of 'size/speed' where he built a foundation - drafted Simms and Taylor in those first few seasons. Then came Parcell's and the rest is history.

              Lombardi's has a bunch of takes and observations on where things have gone wrong.

              1. They are still using the same grading system that Young implemented 30+ years ago. Accorsi ran the same system, Reece ran the same system, and now Mara/Gettleman is running the same basic system.
              2. He thinks Mara is running the team and Gettleman is just the front man to take the heat
              3. Inbred front office. Family run business and Mara is too loyal to really shake things up. Promote from within where some don't have football background. Mentions Kevin Abrams has been there forever. No outside influence or opinions.
              4. Talk Eli and how everyone but Mara knew he was done years before he retired.
              5. Draft and FA are symptoms of the bigger issue.
              6. Need to change how they are running things completely. When Gettleman was hired I was hoping for Louis Riddick since I thought he was more in touch with todays NFL and right or wrong he would have brought another viewpoint from the current old school mentality.
              7. He thinks the Giants think they are better than they are and they think they are smarter at scoring talent than the rest of the NFL.
              8. Says he think it was Mara who wanted to draft Daniel Jones. Mentions that he knows for a fact that McAdoo knew Eli was done and on his own dime went and worked out Mahomes. McAdoo came back and told the draft room he loved Mahomes and he was laughed at and the Giants draft room felt Davis Webb was the best QB in the draft.
              9 Thinks they have too many people who think the same way. Goes on to say Bill Walsh used to say if we're all thinking alike we're not thinking.
              10. Mentions that had to fight off Miss St for Joe Judge. Personally, I think Judge comes off well but he wasn't that hot NFL commodity.
              11. Talks Jason Garrett and how no one was banging down the door for the guy, other than the Giants, and his offense has been one of the worst in the league so far this season. We all know Garrett was another Mara pick and Judge was pressured to interview him along with knowing that the owner wanted him. Tough to make any other choice given that circumstance.
              12. He doesn't see it as the players or bad drafts. It's mainly how the organization is being run.

              https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000493363522

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              • I agree with a lot of that....not all tho - I think there's a clear difference in how Reese and Gettleman draft. So while they may be using the same "system" the end evaluations are VERY different. Accorsi as well. I also don't really see the drafts under Gettleman being bad tbh. I think they've been pretty solid. My major issues with the drafts have been NOT trading back, the trade up for Baker, and not taking a Center last year. For the most part tho - I think they've snagged some good players with it.

                I agree on the Loyalty front in the front office and definitely expect Adams to be next in line - no one complained when that led to Coughlin and Reese after Accorsi tho...people would jump for joy if a "family guy" like Bill strolled in either. Its just they need to do a better job picking thru the apples and knowing when 1 is rotten

                I think we all know the Eli / Mara issue....Tho I'd be really surprised if Mara was the one that was all in on Jones forcing Gettleman's hand. That sounds completely made up to me. I kinda doubt he had much idea who Jones was until late in the process. But even if it was - Has that pick been that bad? He's been better than the 3 "gotta have" Qbs from the previous draft - Darnold, Mayfield, Rosen. Again a Jones / Dex set of picks in that draft look pretty good.

                We know the McAdoo story - that's great - doesn't absolve McAdoo of being a shitty coach - but yes I'm sure Mara's faith in Eli has hurt this team in previous seasons - hell we know it killed Gettleman's start here.

                Agreed on Judge competition, but I think he's ultimately going to pay off. Despite the results I think he knows what he's doing. I think he's going to pan out

                Agreed on Garrett's demand around the league, but I've liked what I've seen from the play calling this year....its just been shitty execution and shitty line play. I think he's brought a bunch of different looks - far more than the offensive "guru" Shurmer or the QB whisper McAdoo brought here. They move the ball despite having 0 running game / offensive line. I dont like JG, wasn't a fan of the hiring, and I know the points arent showing a good picture now, BUT I have liked the concepts they are trying to put in.


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                • I'll agree that the Gettleman drafts have been overall solid. The problem is mainly while he's added solid players there are no real difference makers outside of maybe Barkley when healthy and even when healthy over the last 3 seasons he was more boom/bust each week then a consistent week to week producer. Outside of Barkley there's no one the other team has to game plan for.

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                  • Didn't see much of last weeks game as I was away but yesterday the offense just looked over-matched. O-line is still pretty bad though Peart got some time at RT for some reason during the first half and seemed to do OK in his limited time. I think that's a prelude to what's to come. Zeitler is toast. For a guy who was billed as one of the best G's in all of football his play is pretty average. Only positive is it seemed like Gates actually played OK.

                    He's only played 16 games at the NFL level but Jones hasn't shown much development yet. Still turning the ball over at a record rate though some of it has to do with the Oline, talent around him, and Garret's play calling. Some of the excitement about him has rubbed off some from last year. We all thought he could take a leap forward and in most cases it seems he's taken a step back. Still has a bunch of games to show he could be that franchise type QB.

                    Defense played tough though I think the Ram's play calling had a part in that. The Packer connection have both played really well through 4 games. For all the talk of Carter taking that next step and becoming a force this pre-season the guy has been pretty invisible over the first quarter of the season.

                    After all these years of being bad and high picks you'd think they'd have a few more players where you'd say 'they can build around that guy'. There's really no one on this team who you can point to as a stud player. They have a few good players but no star quality guys outside of a healthy Barkley.

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                    • Goff is not a good QB, but I'll still give credit to the Giants D. Carter had a good first game and then hasn't done anything. X-man has been even more invisible. High hopes for both of them. Bradberry is a legit shutdown corner. I thought he was overvalued...I'm wrong...he's under valued (by rep).



                      They've played good defenses - all the teams they've played are in the top 10 in yards per game and top 7 in PPG allowed. So we do have to keep that in mind BUT bottom line on Jones right now - 8 turnovers (3 fumbles / 5 ints) - 2 touchdowns. Not going to win with that. In fact the whole NFC East are the 4 worst teams in give aways right now which is why they are 3-12. Jones has shown flashes but until he show he can go a couple of games without turning the ball over there should be questions around him

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                      • Are all the D's the Giants played as good as top 10 or has playing the Giants contributed to that high ranking? The NFL as a whole are scoring like crazy this season. There are only 2 teams not averaging ~20 or more points a game - the Giants and Jets - with the Giants far and away the worst scoring offense in all of football at an average of 11.75 points per game. The Jets who are the 2nd worst scoring team is a full 5 points per game better at 16.75 points per game.

                        This team has taken a big step back from last year and I'm not blaming Judge for any of it at this point. It's a bad Oline, one which we couldn't fathom being worse than the previous few seasons, no play makers on offense, and Garret's play calling. Garret has shown a little creativity but how this offense looks and produces needs to fall squarely at his feet right now. Where's the screen game to help this offensive line? I don't remember seeing any type of swing pass or other things to help Jones get rid of the ball. This is exactly the issue some of us had with Garret's downfield offense not being a fit for Jones style of play.

                        They have a good #2 WR in Slayton and 2 good slot guys in Shepard (when healthy) and Tate but no WR they can force the ball to to make a play. They then have a TE that can run like a WR and all that's called for him are 5 yard curls and crossing routes. Engram is their best playmaker on offense and he's only averaging 7.5 targets a game. IMO He needs to be featured more to get this offense going and they need to take some shots with him going downfield.
                        Last edited by dak11; 10-06-2020, 12:24 PM.

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                        • Engram sucks....another Reese overdraft. Sorry Dak but there's a reason why 3 different head coaches and a bunch of different coordinators can't "unlock" his potential. He still makes key drops. He gets tangled at the line of scrimmage. He doesn't run good routes. Fans have been saying get him down field, but if you watch he doesn't get clear separation down field and even when he does, his catch radius sucks. He leads the team in targets so he's clearly featured the problem is he doesn't make plays

                          The defenses they've played are legit good. Coming into the year everyone had the Steelers, 49ers, and Bears among the top defenses in the league and the Rams have 2 of the best defensive players in football. If you want to argue that with the players the 49ers put on the field that day they aren't a top defense fair enough, but these teams aren't "good" because they played a punchless Giants offense. That's not to absolve Jones or Garrett or the O-line, but those are all legit top 10 defenses.

                          I'll be really curious what happens with the O vs Dallas - who is clearly one of the worst defenses in the league. This team still can't put up any points vs that team then there's a huge issue - but right now I see a team that gets into the red zone and can't execute. They convert at a league worst 20% in the redzone. They have 4 turnovers, lead the league in drops in the red zone, and are averaging under 2 yards per carry there. Are there issues in the play calling? Absolutely BUT I'll still argue the offensive play calling under Garrett is far more creative than what we saw under Shurms or McAdoo. This is on Jones to clean up his game, the receivers to start executing, and the line to do SOMETHING.

                          I saw an improvement in the O-line vs the Rams in the 2nd half. They showed some fight...I dont know what PFF says but it looked like Gates best game of the season - not that it was great, but when you consider who he was lined up against he did a good job.....lets see if it starts coming together. I thought Peart played well when Flemming got hurt - hope they are ready to make a change there. Thomas is actually starting to concern me - I get it he's a rookie, but he's looked worse each week after I thought mostly holding his own vs Pitt. He's gotta step it up and I think its time to pull Hernandez

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                          • I'm not saying Engram is anything special, just that compared to the rest of the receivers he's the one who should stand out and be the mismatch. My issue with him is more about how they use him. For a 4.4 type of guy 90% of his routes are 5 yards or less. To me, if he can't block and if they can't get him more than 5 yards downfield then why is he on the field? Engram, even with his flaws, has the ability to stretch and stress the secondary of a defense and I can't understand why 3 staff's have not done more of that.

                            I'm not saying the defenses the Giants played weren't good. But, the rankings will be higher given how poor the Giants offense is.

                            Agree this will be a big week. If the Giants can't move the ball and score against Dallas, who are currently giving up 36.5 points per game, then there are big issues.

                            I read that Peart's play was actually planned. It had nothing to do with a Flemming injury. I think Thomas is overwhelmed a little at this point. Garrett needs to figure out a way to help him a little more with chipping, using a TE, screens, etc. When he was drafted a lot of analysts said his feet in pass sets were his biggest weakness. That's showing up in these first few games. A lot of sites say his footwork is pretty bad as he hasn't been very stable in his sets and has been off balance on 1 leg. They are now claiming he was doing the same thing in college but was just stronger than most of the guys he went against. It's not going to be easy to fix these type of things in season.

                            No one on the Oline has played well up to this point. I've been saying for weeks that the 2 guys the team hoped would have been solid - Hernandez and Zeitler - haven't been near good enough.

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                            • He's a 4.4 guy in underwear...he doesn't play like that on the field. I've yet to see him get this great amount of separation even under other coordinators when they ran him deep. He gets locked up/slowed down by ANY physical contact THATS why 90% of his plays are short. If the O-line only gives the QB 2 seconds and the first second Engram is fighting with a safety who's 1/2 his weight but locking him up - how is he ever going to get down field? Toss in that again he's not a good route runner and gets bumped off his route easily and often - plus drops the ball and well...I think it all starts to add up that he is what he is and not what his misc stats or fans believe him to be.

                              That's been his issue his whole career.

                              What Is see is the team is trying to get him the ball quickly BEFORE LBers and Safeties lock him up and let him try to use his "speed" to get YAC.

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                              • Jeez I was all in on Andrew Thomas swearing he wasn't Flowers 2.0 - harder worker. Smarter player. Better technique. Most well rounded tackle in the draft. Frankly I'm eating crow by the fist full right now. He was pitiful this week and squarely the #1 reason they lost. Constantly beat. Complete wiff on the biggest play of the game - Jones fumble --> TD. EVERY other tackle taken has looked significantly better.

                                We can nit pick the terrible Flemming penalty on the fake FG. The play calling on their last drive. The face mask by Golden. Blake Martinez missing that tackle on Cooper. Or the refs (really the Giants had 3x the penalties than the COWBOYS? 8 for 81 vs. 3 for 25? that's a jobber game)....but that game came down to a rookie LT getting owned. He's not a turn style and they win this one by 2 TDs

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