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  • Gettleman

    Not much going on with this forum anymore since it was down for 2+ months. Figured I'd post to see if anyone is out there.

    Interesting comment in Peter Kings most recent column.

    I think of all the things I read about the draft in the past week, this, from Paul Schwartz of the New York Post about the general manager of the Giants, was most fascinating:

    Dave Gettleman has presided over seven drafts as a general manager — five with the Panthers and two with the Giants — and has never traded down. Never. He selected 28 players with the Panthers and 16 in his two drafts with the Giants (plus one more in the supplemental draft).

    Think of that: A GM who has made 45 picks has never traded down to accumulate more picks from any of the 45. That is borderline negligent. Maybe not even borderline. I am incredulous about that. As I documented last week, GM John Schneider of the Seahawks used last year’s 21st overall pick and traded down six times to accumulate six picks, one of whom was wide receiver DK Metcalf, who, as it turned out, produced better value than a 21st pick in most drafts as a rookie. And four other players from the trade played for the Seahawks last season. Trying to not make too much of that, but wow. Just wow.

  • #2
    Yeah its a bad track record and its especially surprising for a guy who - in general - has had productive (if controversial) drafts and is known for kind of getting latent talent late in drafts....

    Here's what going to kill the Giants then this year.... *IF* Gettleman falls "full bloom" for one of these Tackles - the chances of him moving is slim.... If the Lions slide back - and someone moves up for Tua - I don't think its a given that the "losers" have Herbert as a must get. The Jags for better or worse are paying Foles. The Panthers can run Cam out there. The Raiders are pushing for Brady and have Car. Someone out of that group has to be a reasonable threat to say the Chargers or Dolphins to move up....

    PLUS would Gettleman even be willing -- to get into the 9+ range (Jags/Raiders/etc) because honestly he probably would lose his top OT choice. I suspect that AT LEAST two of the OTs are gone in the top 10. Which 2? I dunno lets see where the underwear olympics go - we know Thomas is on the slide currently - Wills and Becton on massive rises but that could change in an instant.

    I'll say this - if Wirfs (rumored target) goes to the Giants at 4 I'd be pissed. Not because I'd EVER object to taking a well thought of tackle from Iowa - there's a pretty good chance he'll be really good, especially from that school - but more because I think there's 0 chance he's the first tackle off the fact I'd be surprised if he's the 2nd.

    The only reason to stay at 4 IMO is because 1. Young falls. 2. The object of your desire is the overwhelming top tackle going into draft night. - I'd label Becton the only possible one that COULD fall into that category if his 3 cones and agility times push up.

    If Wirfs is the guy or you've got 2 OTs rated very closely you gotta look to move back, especially because the Giants already stupidly wasted 2 picks on LW...

    In the end I'm just praying we don't get caught up and take a non-tackle @ 4 - Brown or Simmons or Okudah at 4. That's victory #1. We get that far I'll be happy


    • #3
      I think Herbet how highly Herbert will be viewed will take the combine and his pro day. He's already impressed at the Senior Bowl. If he puts together good workouts and interviews at the combine then he'll start getting talk about going top 5 and then he could cement that type of talk with his pro day. It still comes down to it only takes 1 team to move up.

      I will agree that Gettleman could think that there's 1 OT that he feels he needs and that's an excuse to stay at #4. I hope that's not the case as there should be similar talent a little further in the draft. The only way the trade down becomes an option is if someone wants a QB. I don't think anyone is trading up for any of the other guys. I will say that I don't think Detroit takes a QB. 1.because Patricia is on the hot seat and 2. Stafford's cap hit is something like $32 mil in 2020 and $19 mil in 2021. He's virtually untradable or cutable at this point. I could see an argument they could take Tua and let him read shirt but that would go against Patricia being on the hot seat and needing to win.

      I'm not sure who the best OT will ultimately be. I personally like Wirfs though I agree not at pick 4. He seems to be the most versatile from what I've read. Becton is getting a lot of hype at the moment. Huge man who's very athletic. My main concern with him is he's already 370 pounds and what's going to happen when he gets some money and can eat out more often. He might be a freak at 370 but what happens if he creeps into the 400 range?

      Only non tackle I'd consider at #4 would be Okudah. Yes, there was a lot of capital spent on CB's the last few years but having a #1 shut down corner can make a huge difference in the whole defense. Lot's of internet 'experts' want Simmons because of his versatility and linking Joe Judges comments about having guys who can play multiple positions to him. I don't like the idea of taking a hybrid safety/LB at #4 when we already have Peppers who can play that role - personally I think Peppers should be more LB than safety. Nothing against Brown. Some have him graded as dominant at DT as Young was at DE this year. But, adding another DT when there are so many more glaring holes would just be a wasted move, especially if that means that Williams walks without any attempt at retaining him for a reasonable contract.

      The real question I have is how hard they go after Conklin. He's the best RT in FA and that's a need position. If he's signed chances are they go a different route at #4 than OT.


      • #4
        Okudah is tough because you know he's not going to be lock down guy year 1. Its insanely rare that a CB is great out of the gate. Just from a visual can you draft yet another CB after taking 4 last year (Baker, Beal, Love, Ballentine) - and watch him struggle.... I get the concept - a lock down corner is vital to a defense, but I just can't go there this year. God forbid he busts for some reason too.... You made your bed last year. Its kind of the same deal with Brown with me. Yeah he might be the next Suh, but they've invested so much in the line the last 2 years - Hill, Tomlinson, Dex, LW - I can't keep adding interior guys. Like I said, Young is the only non-OT I'm going with at 4.

        If they sign Conklin then I think its an absolute MUST to trade back...while I still wouldn't rule out drafting a tackle on top if he's the best guy there. I still really rather use FA $$ on the defense tho - its so young, they need some vets in there and there's a ton of good pass rushers. This draft to me has 2 good pass rushers...thats it. Young and Chaisson...I know some folks will put Espensa up there too, but I don't think he'll be a master QB threat at the next level....I think its a steep drop after those 2.

        I dont expect Det to draft a QB, but I think its highly likely that #3 pick is a QB. So IMO its going to take the perfect storm for Gettleman to trade back in that scenario - aka someone like the Jags moving up to 3 so that they force the Chargers and Miami to bid against each other to move up. I really dont think Gettleman is going to slide back to 9+ (unless they did get Conklin so for folks that are dying for a trade back hope they sign him). Now if Det thinks so highly of Brown or Okudah - then the Giants hit the jackpot because every QB is still in play and there should be a bidding war....I just can't see Detroit NOT trading back.

        I hear your concerns on Becton - I look at it a little different - everything says he's a hard worker so I don't really fear him going to 400....what I see is a guy who's so massive that even if he's NOT perfect he's still going to be tough to get around. If his interviews check out and his 3 cone times are solid, he's my tackle 1....he's a freak and his ceiling is really unlimited - that's the kind of guy you beg for in the top 5.

        That's what worries me with Wills and Wirfs. Wills is the technically the best OT in the draft - BUT he played RT and is he strong enough to to go at it down after down? He should be a good pass blocker, but I don't think he's someone who's opening up running lanes - he's plug and play, probably the lowest ceiling, but safest of the main 4. Wirfs is a truck, but can he get up vertically enough? I worry about the speed rush and him out on the edge alone. He seems like a guy who should stay at RT OR he'd be an elite Guard. Folks have been picking apart Thomas the last few weeks, but as of now he's still my OT2...we'll see what the combine brings. 1st He actually plays LT - its not a RT that we're hoping can move over. His technical issues have nothing to do with hands - its more minor footwork which I think is actually more correctable and its more of a consistency thing. Dude has clubs if he engages hands its over whether you're a power rusher or speed guy - he's got the run blocking of Wirfs, better technically than Becton, but bigger than Wills. Kind of the inbetween and I think right now because he's been "the" guy for so long he's becoming undervalued over nit picking. We've seen this so many times before.

        Simmons meh. In the right system he could be a beast because week to week you can use him differently, BUT is he big enough to really have a full impact at this level? Maybe in the 10s if they trade back he's worth looking at...not before then to me. Honestly I'd be tempted to go Jeudy or Lamb at WR before Simmons in a trade back / sign Conklin scenario. Those two are "given" game breakers IMO. Simmons is going to have a lot of things tailored towards him and DC that really knows how to maximize him.


        • #5
          I always view CB's that are top 5-10 picks verse other CB's. The top guys usually perform pretty well that first year. Guys like Denzel Ward and Ramsey come to mind as recent guys. But, In general I agree that CB's tend to have a tough time that first year. I'm not worried about what we drafted in the past. Ballentine isn't a starter quality guy and love isn't viewed as a corner anymore, at least based on how he was used last year. You add a top guy like Okudah and those other guys get better as well since you can then roll coverages to help the other guys. Ideally, they go offense to help their top 2 players but I'd be fine with Okudah at #4 as this isn't a 1 year rebuild situation. Maybe they show progress this year and then take a jump in 2021.

          Totally agree with Brown. He's a stud and worthy of that #4. Big difference to me vs CB is the depth at DT, especially if they being back Williams.

          What happens with Conklin in FA will play a huge role in the draft for the Giants. If they add him then it opens up defensive players and/or WR's. For me the #1 priority is at least 1 OT who can step in and start right away, preferably in FA so that the draft can stay open to BPA. If they do not get Conklin then it gets tricky as to that #4 pick needing to be a OT or only trading down a few spots to still get that OT. Adding Conklin also gives them the ability to trade out of the top 6-7 picks and accumulate more picks. Teams like the Raiders, Colts, and Bucaneers then become options for trading up for a QB. I think most of us would be happy with trading the #4 pick to the Raiders for pick 12 and 19. You might be able to squeeze another pick out from them if they are desperate.

          Becton might ultimately be the guy. I just have concerns with guys who are that big at age 21. Guys usually do not get smaller as they age.

          I'm not crazy about Wills mainly for the reasons you put. Being a RT who might be able to play LT isn't someone I'd use that #4 pick on. Same with Wirfs. Though you move down to that 10-15 range and they become more attractive. Thing with Wirfs is that he seems that he can play both OT's and possible G so that gives some flexibility. it also raises flags that he's not a stud at any of those spots.

          I like Simmons, just not in the top 10. He's a boom or bust guy depending on the scheme he goes to. I'm also not looking towards WR. That's one of the deepest positions in the draft so while Jeury and Lamb are potential studs without the Oline being fixed they're a luxury pick.

          Overall it should make for an interesting April not knowing the route they'll go. I just hope Gettleman is willing and able to work out some deals.


          • #6
            Ogeltree and Kareem Martin released as expected.

            Moves add another $13.05 mil in cap space.

            Oddly, that amount would cover the dead money if they move on from Solder, which I'm not expecting them to do by march 18th when his $3 mil bonus kicks in.

            Next in line to be released is Eillison who'll save another $5 mil and Bethea who'll add $2.75 mil.

            Pulley is also rumored to be on the list, $2.75 mil savings, but with Halapio out with his achilles it could be a tough cut until they're able to add a center.
            Last edited by dak11; 02-26-2020, 01:01 PM.


            • #7
              I'd still cut Pulley - its a deep draft for Centers as well as there's really 5 guys depending on who you talk to who are the "top" of the class - Biadasz, Hennessy, Ruiz, Cushenberry. Harris - and there was even talk of having Gates move over. But even if they waited to round 5+ I feel like there are guys better than Pulley in this draft.

              I'd still be stunned if they cut Solder the savings just isn't there...this is definitely his last as Giant tho...if they go Wirfs (trade down) AND sign Conklin I could see them potentially cutting Zietler as that would "save" them more - 7.5 mil but that's so many moving parts not sure its the smart thing to do.

              The other 2 guys I wonder - not from a cap savings pov, but just in general - are Tanney - not that he's expensive, but does he get the carry forward for no real good reason on this team? I mean you're not signing a backup for Jones for under 1 mil on the market...and Gallman - again you're probably not getting a backup RB for less than a mil, but the previous staff didnt seem to trust him at all could this one go looking elsewhere...


              • #8
                I don't expect them to move on from Solder this year. Too many moving parts where his bonus is vs the draft. Would they pay him $3 mil in March to then cut/trade him for that $13 mil cap hit after they see how FA and the draft play out? Unlikely. I believe his post June cap hit would be around $6.5 this and next year.

                No reason to cut Tanney or Gallman at this point IMO. The cap savings is so small you might as well bring them to camp. Tanney's cap hit is right around a mil and Gallman is around $800k.


                • #9
                  Yeah I'm not saying cut those guys for cap space - as I noted they'd save pennies - I'm just more curious if they look to address those 2 positions via FA / Draft


                  • #10
                    I could see them add a RB in the draft. Maybe a big body guy in the later rounds to counter what Barkley does. Still don't see them moving on from Gallman given his reasonable contract.

                    Tanney is what they need. A veteran guy who can help Jones develop. I don't see them wasting any draft picks on a QB but what backup QB would you want to add for around $1 mil? The truth is that this team isn't going to the playoffs next year and if Jones happens to go down a better veteran QB won't make a difference. I would expect them to bring another arm or 2 into camp and possibly have a 3rd QB at some point. I'm not sure I'd look to upgrade or pay any more at that position if I didn't have to, at least for 2020.


                    • #11
                      I could see the Giants as a very attractive landing spot for some quality QBs -- It's NY....the NFC east isnt especially good. They should have a a rebuilt and solid OL. You've got weapons in Barkley and Engram with solid pros in Tate/Shepard.... and all that's between you and starting is a 2nd year QB who already missed some time last year.

                      I'd personally like a better backup than Tanney. I dont think its a huge thing and I wouldn't dedicate a ton $$ towards it - but here's the deal. I feel like if they keep Tanney they are going to go down the path of keeping 3 QBs on the roster - which to me was such a freakin waste last year (and any year before with Eli around) because no one really wants to see Tanney in a game...they just want "experience" around.

                      The roster spot being open interests me more than saving say 2 mil. I'd rather see them go out and sign say Case Keenum (or someone like that) for 2-3 mil and just leave the QB depth chart at 2. You can go sign another to sit on the practice squad or something.


                      • #12

                        If true then delete all plans of staying drafting anything but a tackle I'm round one


                        • #13
                          Well that was squashed as soon as the rumor surfaced. And it was squashed in a NEVER going to the Jets not just not a straight denial. Does he not want NY period? Who knows, but I will say this Conklin is going to be MASSIVELY overpaid. There's a reason he didn't get the 5th year option. If he was so good why would the Titans not get one more cheap year out of him?

                          This is a DEEP Tackle class. There will be talent there in the 2nd round. Jones, Niang, Jackson, Wanogho. There will be also be centers at 36 that make sense value wise Ruiz/Cushenberry/Hennessey There won't be the same kind of talent at the LB or CB positions at 36. I'd much rather get Simmons or Okudah at 4 and then grab an OT/IOL at 2 than the other way around.


                          Go do a mock draft or two. The 2nd round options are infinitely better when going Simmons/Okudah at 4 than going Becton/Wills/Thomas/Wirfs. If we actually had our 3rd round pick there are even OT options there that are still pretty good which would have allowed them more freedom at the 36th slot for maybe an EDGE or WR.

                          Simmons is a goddamn freak of nature. I think he will thrive in what the Giants are reported to want to do with letting matchups determine their schemes week to week and not have one rigid scheme whether it's on defense or offense. What better way to do that with than a dude who can seemingly do it all. Simmons is getting so much hype the Lions might just take him which drops a perfectly framed shut down corner in our laps. I know we've been drafting CB's like crazy, but shutdown corner is still one of the most important positions on a football team you worry about what to do with the Giants young glut there afterwards other than Baker the rest are forgettable.

                          The OT's all have flaws and none are can't miss. Becton is the one that excites me most. The guy is a mountain, but raw and needs coaching he has the highest upside which is what i want with a top 5 picks. I don't want safe. Wills seems like a finished product with limited upside. Never played LT. You better be getting your future LT for the next decade at #4 or you doing it wrong. Wirfs tested great, but that doesn't mean he's still not a future guard at the NFL level which everyone says he is. Thomas is what he is he at least played LT and is almost as big as Becton, but he has technique issues and motor issues. I get Flowers chills with this guy.

                          The level of player Simmons/Okudah will bring is what i want out the number 4 pick. At 36 we will still be about to get high end offensive line help.

                          Free agency is going to be so important. What holes will be filled allowing them more freedom to go BPA in the draft. You start drafting for need and you start missing out on real talent. Hell there are still legit scenarios where Young gets to #4 now that would change alot of things.
                          My EntireTeam Sucks...


                          • #14
                            Simmons isn't a pass rusher tho....he's a straight line blitzer who's not going to have to size to mix it up with NFL OL. While I agree that he can fill a lot of needs and cover a lot of holes, he's never going to be worth anything unless this team has a pass rush. He's basically a safety -- freak or not I can't take a safety top 5....and I doubt he's there if the Giants trade back to say like 12.

                            I'm not sold that Okudah is really a lock down CB. To me, last year's class was stronger. I think he's by far the best of a mediocre class and getting bumped up a bit higher than normal.

                            All those OTs you mention I have 0 interest in - there's a HUGE drop off from the top 4 to Jones (I think he'll be a bust - sooo many technique issues), Niang (lazy - work ethic and weight issues), Jackson (project - he got OWNED by mediocre pass rushers in this upcoming draft), Wanogho (MAJOR project - he's got raw skill, but he's going to need 1-2 years of coaching)

                            I disagree that none of the OTs are can't fact I pretty much think all 4 are can't miss. To me, they are the best OT group to come out in the better part of a decade.

                            I do agree on Conklin tho - I think he's overrrated

                            Another pass rusher off the boards as well as Jacksonville is saying there are using the franchise tag.....


                            • #15
                              Yannick already saying goodbyes and threatening to not play under the franchise tag. Giants trade #4 to the Jags for #9 and Ngakoue. Most if not all of the OT's will still be there.
                              My EntireTeam Sucks...