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  • #16
    Originally posted by OrangeNblueNmyVeins View Post
    Baker being a step behind is understandable with his injury and time missed in camp. They should have rode Ballentine harder. Hamilton is a dogshit replacement level player. But again Dallas probably has the best OL in the league and all their weapons on O would be alot to handle for any team let alone a D like the Giants.

    It's always easy to attack coaching, but Bettcher was billed as some rising Defensive mind whose teams blitz like crazy and show all these interesting looks etc to keep team O's on their toes, but we haven't seen that yet at all. I get his D is only going to look as good as the personnel he's got, but his D schemes has been overrated as hell so far.
    It's all personnel with Bettchers D. Until they get guys who can get to the QB his philosophy will not work. His D worked in Arizona because he had Calais Campbell and Chandler Jones averaging close to 20 sacks between them on the D-line. It's a lot easier to blitz and make it home if there's multiple pass rushers coming. Currently Giants have basically 3 run stuffers along with questionable pass rushing LB's.It's a lot easier to pick up blitzes when there's not other rushers that need to be accounted for.

    Ultimately, I think the DL issue starts with Tomlinson. OK player who offers next to no pass rush and isn't a top run defender who takes up multiple blockers like Snacks was. Next year they get a legit DE who can rush while kicking Lawrence inside and this D could start to fit the mold of what Bettcher is probably looking more for.

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    • #17
      One real positive is that Jones got in this game....I don't think he did anything all that well, but I think it's an indication of this team's mindset - I admit as much as I believe its complete BS to dump this team's problems on Eli (he's one of the least of their issues) - I am/was a bit worried that if this team shows out as a non-competitor early that they'd be reluctant to go to Jones until basically the "math" said they were done.

      I think getting him in there, in a blow out, just to get him some "game speed" experience shows the signs that they aren't going to wait around for an Eli farewell tour...they'll push this if it makes sense.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by MrHat View Post
        One real positive is that Jones got in this game....I don't think he did anything all that well, but I think it's an indication of this team's mindset - I admit as much as I believe its complete BS to dump this team's problems on Eli (he's one of the least of their issues) - I am/was a bit worried that if this team shows out as a non-competitor early that they'd be reluctant to go to Jones until basically the "math" said they were done.

        I think getting him in there, in a blow out, just to get him some "game speed" experience shows the signs that they aren't going to wait around for an Eli farewell tour...they'll push this if it makes sense.
        Yeah, nice spot to give him his first action. Blow out loss with Dallas playing a soft prevent. Nothing like areal NFL D but allowed him to get a few easy completions out of the way. I think Shurmur will start to get him playing time and chance he gets. IMO he's safe for this year since he and Gettleman can still play the rebuild card. But, starting next year that's no longer the case so it makes it critical to get Jones game action this year to have him ready to go in 2020. If there's not progress with the team in 2020 then I think the coaching staff could be in trouble.

        Here's the big question. If the D continues to be horrible does Bettcher take the fall? If so, then how does this D move forward given that a lot of the moves made were with an eye to fill the roles he needs to be successful? I liked the hire but that was one of the issues with hiring a guy who's system is unique. You draft players to fit that unique system with the possibility they might not fit in someone else's. When hired I didn't think the issue would be him not putting a solid D together. It was more about him doing well and getting HC offers.

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        • #19
          They've really only invested in the line and CBs on the D which will be useful in any team's defense.... draft wise at least. Maybe the exception to that is a guy like Xman or Carter...but Carter at least to me seems like the kind of athlete who could adapt to a number of different roles.

          I'd say more would be some of the signings / trades they made - which are all honestly kind of short term anyways - Bethea, Golden, Peppers, Ogeltree, etc. Those guys could all be gone next year anyways.

          I don't see a huge issue having Lawrence/Hill/Thomlinson playing in a 3-4 or a 4-3...

          In any case I'd be surprised if anyone gets the axe unless this is a clear regression from last year....meaning this ends up being a 2-3 win team...then I think even with Jones at the helm the coach could take the axe on this....can't be that bad, never have a winning record, and still survive IMO. If they win their expected 5-7 I think everyone is safe even if the D continues to be complete ****....they get the youth excuse just like the coach with the QB will get.

          Honestly I think Gettleman is safe no matter what even with a disaster season....he's the one who's really tied to Jones - even more than the HC - who could just prove he's not a good coach, lose the team, etc.

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          • #20
            Now that the hot takes are finally cooling down - I'm really interested in week 2 matchup here.

            The QB is turnover prone. They don't have some dynamic running game. If this defense can't cover / can't get pressure / can't create a turnover against this Bills team they really are the bottom feeders everyone in the media says they are. Honestly they are kind of built like a worse version of the Cowboys in a lot of ways - highly mobile, inaccurate QB - 1 really good WR with a bunch of decent receivers around that.... some pound it running backs and a really good front 7 defensively. Lets be honest the Bills had NO business winning week 1...it was Jets being Jets

            This is a measurement game for the Giants - they win this one and you look at 2 other fairly winnable games with the Bucs and Redskins after. They lose and do those games really matter? You just kicked off the DJ countdown switch and the race for a top 5 pick. There's no reason this defense should look completely overmatched against the Bills offense...while the Giants offense again faces a pretty good D.

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            • #21
              More WR injury issues. Latimore seemed to do something to his calf today and left practice.

              Maybe they'll bring back Russell.

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              • #22
                Start the clock.... Dexter and Baker looked and acted like complete garbage out there for the 2nd straight week.

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                • #23
                  Rookies, especially DB's, usually struggle early on. We've both said we would have preferred Greedy Williams over Baker during the draft. Baker seems slow at this point and the lost playing time in the preseason really set him back in knowing the D. Hoping he starts showing improvement since we all saw what it's like to have a 1st round CB who can't play (ie Apple) where he constantly gets burned but you feel you have to play him because of the draft capital that was used.

                  Lawrence is another story. I was even less of a fan of this move, especially as a DE, since I don't see him much more than an athletic NT and they already had Tromlinson who was limited to NT that they just spent a 2nd rounder on. Ultimately, I think Tomlinson will be gone or move to a backup and Lawrence will move inside by 2020. That's the only way Lawrence will have value as he's not an outside guy who can provide pass rush. Plus, the only way this D will start to get pressure is if you get someone at the DE who has that capability be it Olsen Pierre, McIntosh, or even the undersized Ximines.

                  Season is going just like I was expecting. Defense, especially the secondary, has been crap with zero pass rush. Offense looks like it could be OK if/when Sheppard and Tate are on the field.

                  I still don't expect to see Jones for a few more weeks. It's only fair to give Manning a a few weeks at this points while the WR's get healthy. It doesn't make a lot of sense to roll Jones out there when the top healthy WR's are Benie Fowler, Cody Lattimore, Russell Sheppard, and TJ Jones. Let Manning get through the next few weeks with that and then bring Jones in when Tate and Sheppard return. The other issue is that Once Jones plays in a non-mop up job there's no going back to Manning no matter how it goes. Because of that you need to make sure Jones is ready where you wait an extra couple of weeks rather than putting him in a really tough position. All signs are pointing to that week 7 Arizona game. You don't want him having to play Minn and New England his first couple games he starts. Bellichek's D would eat him alive and the Vikings are pretty good too.

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                  • #24
                    Well beyond that it makes Gettleman/Shurms look even more idiotic if Jones is taking over by week 3....I mean why the **** did they even bother to bring him back in that case? I still think the Pats game will be his swan song.

                    Re: Baker - yup and yup...BUT what I also don't get is he was a press corner....and I figured with Betcher having to blitz to have ANY chance to generate pressure that they'd WANT to use him as a press corner - instead he's standing 8-10 yards off the line. Sorry, I'd rather see him get burned deep 3-4 times a game than give up a dozen 3rd and >8 first downs because he's playing soft. I blame Betcher there - that seems to be a complete misuse of skills.

                    I'll just quote myself from draft night

                    1. Lawrence - Jones is Jones. I know none of us would have gone there, but I'm not going to rehash that one....he's QB. He was the apple of their eye. You take that player there and your job it directly tied to him. Lawrence is just a major reach at this spot. This team needs a pass rush - Sweat was there. No idea why that didn't happen. As I said before a Sweat/Jones first round completely changes things. You really want some more depth inside? Then go with an inside pass rusher - Tillery was also available. He's just as much of a beast as Lawrence + is an elite inside pass rusher. Really did not understand this pick. You trade Snacks because you want to move Tomlinson inside. Now you're forcing him back outside. Don't get it. He needs to be BETTER than Snacks to justify that pick. He can't just be a 2 down run stuffer.

                    2. Trade up for Baker - Don't get me wrong he was a first round talent....and given the rush on CB's to start the 2nd there's an argument to be made that this wasn't a bad move, but look at the talent left on the board - At 37 they could have had Greedy, Cody Ford, Dalton RIsner, etc - By moving up early they lost out on moving around later in the draft. Guys like Winovich and Feguson - projected 2nd rounders fell to mid-late 3rd round. In the 4th round had they just stayed put they missed out on guys like Michael Jordan, Foster Moreau, Deionte Thompson, etc. Baker not only needs to come in as a starter day 1 opposite JJ - he needs to be a really good one quickly given they could have addressed RT/C for the next 10 years here and still had plenty of CBs to look at. You're banking on a 38 year old Eli and a rookie QB behind him - you have Wheeler at RT.... You traded your leading sack guy....you're banking on a guy coming off of two miserable years in Golden and a 2nd year player for a pass rush. You already spent your 3rd round pick on a CB that would have been probably the CB4-5 in this draft. Baker needs to be a stud. Yes it's impressive that he allowed 1 TD...yes teams didn't throw at him much...BUT he's not a play maker like Murphy. Not an elite twitch cover like Greedy. We'll see if that's just because he was "so good" no one wanted to challenge him or if he'll get exploited vs NFL talent. I think the later
                    Kind of felt it then and listen its 2 games dont want to bury them, but it certainly looks like Baker/Lawrence are going to be the sore thumbs of the draft over Jones.... (to be fair not that Sweat or Greedy have been beasts)


                    I'll eat crow so far - I expected them to be 1-1 at this point. I expected them to be no worse than 2-4 going into week 7....now I'll be kind of surprised if they win more than a game. I expected a 7 win season...now I'll be surprised if they match last years 5 wins. And look I HATE just moving on from coaches and I know there's a talent gap here, but I'm really concerned about what Betcher and Shurm are doing here. Why can Shula script an opening drive, but then go so far OFF what worked them for the entire rest of the game. Is it all an inability to adapt to Eli's strengths or to defensive changes? I dunno....something is off and it goes beyond talent IMO - at least on the offense. Defense - no idea what to think at this point...want to see what happens with that unit by week 6-8.

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                    • #25
                      Non Giant stuff:

                      Brees out 6 weeks with broken thumb

                      Big Ben OUT FOR THE SEASON with elbow injury. Ouch.

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                      • #26
                        Vacchiano says that Jones is likely starting next week. Shurmur wouldn't confirm but hinted at it Well that was quick
                        Last edited by strummer; 09-16-2019, 02:56 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Yeah, I was just going to post this tween from Kim Jones.

                          Kimberly Jones@KimJonesSports
                          Hes been our starter to this point. Im not ready to talk about that. - Pat Shurmur on whether Eli is his starter.
                          Told that will lead to speculation, Shurmur said: I understand.#NYG

                          Also talk that they won't name the starter until Wednesday for week 3.

                          Manning was asked about it and almost looked resigned to the fact that it's happening.

                          Hey, were 0-2 and youre looking for answers, Manning said. So I get it. When you draft a guy early and youre not winning games, these are gonna come up. So Ive just gotta keep working and do whatever my job is.

                          Lots of talk that points towards the change.

                          https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/f...hyq-story.html

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                          • #28
                            This goes back to the whole reason you never keep an incumbent if you're drafting a QB top 10.... Just a waste

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                            • #29
                              Jones officially named starter for Sunday.

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                              • #30
                                Big Ben and Eli eras essentially end on the same day. Rivers only one remaining from the 2004 draft class

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