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Giants Offseason

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  • Giants Offseason

    Might as well start another "mega thread" for tossing all the offseason/draft rumors and such....

    The whole Eli thing will be answered by March 17th - he's due a roster bonus of 5 mil. If they are going to completely cut ties it'll be before then.....if they pay it, he'll be the QB to start 2019. I don't think Eli will take a paycut....the only remaining question will be if they Giants extend him to lower the cap hit.

    Vernon will be the other big roster decision I think. Dude just can't stay healthy, but at the same time he's the only pass rusher they have. He'd be 8 mil in dead cap or 19.5 against it. If they give him 1 more year he'd be 4 mil in dead cap. I'd be stunned if they kept BOTH Vernon and Eli....I think 1 probably ends up determining the other. My guess? Vernon is gone - this draft has a ton of pass rushers and the FA market actually has some solid talent there too.

    Ogletree is another potential out with 5 mil in deadcap vs. 11.5 in salary, but I think he stays. Jenkins is 14 mil vs. 7 mil not enough savings for what he brings to the field for me, but I guess there's always potential there...I know plenty of folks think he's ripe for it.

    Needs (forgetting QB for the moment):

    Pass rush / OLB
    Free Saftey

    I know folks will point to CB as well, but I'm okay with Jenkins, Haley (slot/nickle), and giving Beal the shot.

    If they aren't going with a tackle @ #6 then I'd skip it this draft and try to find the answer in FA. I think Taylor and Williams are the only starting tackles in this draft. I'm not a fan of Little. Both those guys would be well served starting on the right side too.

    If Allen is there @6 you take him. However I think there's a number of good pass rush LBers/DE types that will still be around in round if they go QB or OT its still a spot that can be addressed with the depth of this draft.

    A key for the Giants will be to figure out how to best leverage their horde of late round picks. Find some potential cap hits on other teams and leverage 5-7 type picks for can probably fill G/C with moves like that for guys who are making a little much to be backups on teams moving in different directions. Think reverse Brett Jones this time around. I think most of the OL talent in this draft is just not as exciting as last year. So they might have to do a lot of work on the market.....

    Safety is another area in this draft that only has 1-2 high end guys but to me is loaded with guys who could go anywhere from 3-5...I think they can go the cheap route and address that there with maybe a cheap vet fill in for insurance.

    My take on the QB situation is if they don't love Haskins, Lock, or Jones enough to take them early in this draft...then just keep Eli. If they love one of those guys, then cut Eli right from go and brace for impact by signing a cheap stop gap - Fitz, Bridgewater, Taylor, someone because I don't think any of them are day 1 guys and honestly in this draft possibly not even year 1 guys.... I don't want Eli here as the mentor...I think it leads to an ugly situation no matter what. Team Icons have not transitioned well to the next gen. Combine with this QBs is going to be really interesting. Haskins looked really good in the rose bowl. Jones was very impressive in his bowl win, but still has numerous concerns. I love Lock's arm, but he still makes some odd choices and I'm not sure how much of a leader his is - team seems to love him, but he's an "oh gosh" silent type - he's some weird combo of Eli (personality) and Jay Cutler (arm / decision making) right now.

  • #2
    Gettleman implied that if Eli is here then his cap number will be lower in his press conference. I don't see him returning on the current deal and if he's brought back they'll extend him a year to space out the signing bonus.

    I tend to think Vernon will be here mainly because of the cap hit. Only way I see them moving on from him is as a post June cut where they can spread that cap hit over 2 seasons. I don't think Carter showed enough to replace his potential production. Drafting a DE early would probably seal his fate.

    I think Jenkins returns. The fact that there's no real replacement for him is my main reason. You go with him, Beal, Haley and bring back Webb and they're 'good enough' if they can add to the pass rush.

    I think Ogletree stays because they dealt a pick for him just last year. Personally, he's a flawed player who is terrible in coverage and I don't like his cap number but this is another spot where they really don't have a replacement for him and with all the other holes MLB shouldn't be a draft priority.

    I like the idea of using those late picks on bad contract guys. Problem is that the Giants aren't like the Jets with a ton of cap space so it would be tough going that route without releasing some of the big contracts guys and even with that a lot of money will be caught up in dead cap space. Add in is they're going to resign Collins then that will take even more space.

    FS is a need position. I like the little I saw from Chandler but he's another SS type guy. What they do with Collins will be interesting. 2 years ago he was a potential defensive player of the year but his play dropped the last 2 seasons. He's more of a light LB then a safety since he lacks coverage skills. IMO they have to at a minimum franchise/sign him and like you mentioned adding a good FS could allow him to do with he does best - attack in the box.

    QB - For me at this point I'd continue to build the rest of the team this year (mainly OL/DL) and do whatever I need to to move up next year to get one of the top guys. At a minimum you should have Herbert, Fromm, and Tua at the top oft he draft plus any other QB's who step up during the season. If you want to take a shot at a guy then I'd be thinking more about a guy who'll fall into the 2nd/3rd round like Will Grier, Finley, Stidham, etc.


    • #3
      Yeah I really have no interest in "taking a shot" at a later round QB.....unless one of the main "3" fall into their laps in the 2nd/they move up late in the first - ala Lamar last year... Once you get to QB4 in this draft I really have 0 interest in them. I don't see them being any better/less of a project than Lauletta / Webb / Nassib / etc as 3rd/4th round picks in the past. Too many holes and "missing" that 3rd rounder with okay, but not tremendous cap space, doesn't leave room for a project backup IMO.

      With Vernon - 10 mil saved is still a lot to spend on FAs considering his production. 11 games, 7 sacks, 30 tackles....that doesn't seem all that hard to replace for that kind of cash. A bunch of the Philly and Atl pash rushers are set to be FAs.


      • #4
        I just don't see how you can let Vernon go unless you draft a pass rusher early, most likely the 6th spot, to replace him.

        Unless any of the QB's really WOW at the combine I wouldn't be excited about adding any of them at this point. The recent trend with teams is to build the supporting cast prior to getting that QB and then continue to build/contend while his contract is reasonable. I think the only stop-gap guy I'd be interested in right now would be Bridgewater and it has nothing to do with his talent. It has more to do with the fact that he knows Shurmurs offense and he probably wouldn't be all that expensive which would allow the team to carry the dead cap numbers. If he fails then you'll be picking top 10 and in the spot to move up for a QB in 2020 and if he's good then you have the ability to move forward with him given his age. He also has been a backup the last few seasons so he could be also be mentor to a young QB.

        Giants are in a tough spot though. They have 2 young guys who you do not want to waste any years of production (Barkley/OBJ) but the best course for the franchise might be to take all the cap hits this year (Manning, Vernon, etc.) and think about 2020 where you can have cap space and a young potential franchise QB.


        • #5
          Originally posted by dak11 View Post
          I just don't see how you can let Vernon go unless you draft a pass rusher early, most likely the 6th spot, to replace him.
          Like I said if you can only count on him for 10-12 games (and only maybe 8 where he's truly healthy and performing) how can you pay him? 13 sacks and 67 tackles over the last 2 years for a cool 40 mil. I think they go pass rusher either with #6 or their 2nd round pick. You sign another guy in FA the combined salaries of that could equal the money saved by dropping him.

          Like I said maybe they give him 1 more year as next year he's only 4 mil in dead cap, but either way he's a short timer here.


          • #6
            It's interesting looking at the top 5 in this draft and thinking that none really need a QB and most have a huge need at the elite talents the top 3-4 picks can provide. Cards have Rosen...but they need a lot of help...however would they really pass on Bosa?

            SF is a potential trade partner for someone....they have the QB. They need a DE, but if they are only sliding back to say 6 or 7...they can probably get a pretty good one there still if they pass Allen, Oliver, etc

            Jets badly need OT or rush much as people circle them because they traded away draft capital last year I can't believe they'd pass on getting elite folks at either spot in this draft

            I could see the Raiders more likely moving UP...they have significant draft capital they don't need to move down to get more...they need talent. I could see them and Arizona working a deal to be honest if Gruden is in love with Bosa.

            TB...all depends on their QB thoughts. They are the only team in the top 5 with a potential need there. They also have a huge need in the secondary so I don't think they'd want to move too far down. This is also the only slot I'd endorse the Giants moving up to if they really feel Haskins or whoever is their guy. They can use their late round capital to swap up. I have no interest in having to give up future firsts and/or 2nd to move into the #1/2 slot. If Jacksonville or Miami or someone really wants to, I'm more than content to continue to build the lines in prep for 2020 ...


            • #7
              I don't see Oakland paying to move up for some reason unless it's for a QB. They have so many holes that I'm not sure they'd be willing to spend the additional 1st or 2nd rounder (based on draft chart) it would take to move from 4th to 1st or 2nd.

              Giants pick will need a little time to develop. For me I know they need a QB but I'm not sure any of them are worth trading up for. At this point I'd be more willing to sit at 6 and take my chances that if they want a QB that Haskins is there or that Daniel Jones becomes that top 10 type pick that some are projecting him to be. I guess if Lock were to unlikelt drop to late 1st or early 2nd I could see them taking a shot at him but he seems to be more of a hit or miss guy along the lines of Josh Allen.

              Issue will be that 2020 is a much better QB draft but if they build the rest of the team (OL/DE) in 2019 will they again pick in the top 10 where they might be able to move to get one of them?


              • #8
                The Arians hire I think means TB isn't going QB in the draft. He's expressed multiple times in the past that he doesn't want to build a new QB....basically why he left I do think that #5 pick could be up for sale....tho as noted I don't think they'd want to move tooooo far back. I'd be surprised if they'd slide back to 13 with the Dolphins. 6/7 definitely in play. 10 on Denver...not so sure.

                The thing is if I'm Denver or Miami I don't think I can risk it at 5 at least pre-draft....I think they'd almost have to move up to at least 2, if not 1 and that involves a TON of draft capital. The Jets last year were able to take a risk at moving up to just #3 because they probably had 2-3 QBs on their board they'd be happy taking there. There's 1...maybe 2 QBs on the board truly worth a top 15 pick right now this year. Giants or Jags could slide up to the 5 spot because it only costs them maybe 4th and another pick in the if Haskins isn't there...not the end of the world. To go from even 10 to 5 it would at least cost their 2nd round pick and likely something else. Maybe they'd do that draft day if the he's still on the board come 5, but its not a trade thats happening prior.

                Just wondering if it would be smart for the Giants to strike early for a minor move like that and live with BPA if some team jumps them rather than wait for draft day. It could make things more interesting come draft day as well as teams in the top 3 may view the #5 pick significantly higher than the #6 just because of elite rush talent going 3-4 deep - ensuring they'd still get one.

                Haskins is having a Barkley start to his pre-draft stuff...talking up being a Giant...always dreaming of being a Giant. Wearing the colors.... I'm still not sold on going all out to get him, but if he's there at 6 I think my mind is made up. Only Josh Allen's completely unexpected availiblity there would change it at this point.


                • #9
                  Arians was quoted as saying the whole thing will be built around Winston. He also wants to do an offense which takes the deep shots and his motto is 'you have to risk it for the bisquit' so I'd be surprised if they go QB after that comment.

                  I don't think the Giants should premove until some of the workouts start. Only way they do that is if they are 100% looking to move up to #1/2 for Haskins.


                  • #10
                    So it's looking like Kyler Murray is going to announce his intention to enter the draft on Sunday. This is all kinds of good for the Giants. Not that I want them to draft him, but it could shake things up enough in the top 5 to either take a defense guy that falls(Allen) because some other team trades up for Murray or Haskins falls into their laps without moving out of 6th.

                    Haskins looks great on paper. The numbers are there and the physical traits are there, but he only has 14 games under his belt. Trubisky was in the same situation. It's a big gamble, but he "seems" like the better fit with Barkley/OBJ. Pocket passer/play action guy instead of a crazy mobile gun slinger.
                    My EntireTeam Sucks...


                    • #11
                      Hard for me to believe that Murray, Heisman and all, will be a top 5 pick. He's also a dual QB threat (1001 yards and 12 TD's on the ground) which will not play out the same in the NFL given that he's only 5'10'' and less than 200 pounds.

                      Kingsbury was quoted as saying he's take Murray #1 overall back before he got the Card's job in 2018. Rumor being floated is Cards take Murray first overall and try to trade Rosen. Personally, I don't see that happening because I don't see Murray making the same jump during the pre-draft run up as Mayfield.



                      • #12
                        Yeah agreed...but its beyond Kingsbury saying that. A number of scouts are saying Murray should definitely be a first rounder....that's enough for me. I'm of the same opinion that I don't want the Giants picking him, but hey if he's someone so other team falls in love helps get a guy to the Giants. Last year it worked out with Cleveland falling in love with Mayfield leaving what I believe were the best 2 choices available for the Giants.

                        Maybe the same thing happens again this year.....

                        Cards are definitely not moving on from Rosen


                        • #13
                          An intriguing (possible) mid round QB could be Tyree Jackson. He's being viewed as a Josh Allen/Cam Newton type. Huge kid at 6'7'' and 245 pounds but he's pretty mobile and has a strong arm. Much like Allen accuracy is a potential issue along with competition level in the MAC. I've seen reports that he could be a 1-2 round guy after the combine all the way down to a 4-6 round grade. He was invited to the senior bowl after he declared so he'll get some exposure going against kids from some of the bigger schools and would be a kid who could use a year learning and refining his throwing.

                          2018 numbers - 3131 yards, 28 TDs with 12 INT's. Also added 7 rushing TD's.


                          • #14
                            As an alumni there I should be all in on Jackson but I cant. He's a 4th round project type pick not a 1-2 guy IMO and the Giants have drafted too many of those recently. If they skip a day 1, keep ALL their picks then okay.....but outside of that, no. Osborn, the Bulls WR is a heck of a player out of the slot btw.

                            Been looking at Murray a lot. Gettleman won't draft him, but it shouldn't be because of his height. I'm more worried about his overall size. While Wilson, Brees, Mayfield are all about 5'10-6'0 they are all 215 pounds +. Wilson especially just looks built. Murray is a stick...that 25-30 pound gap just looks huge. The 5'9 or 5'10 thing doesn't worry me all that much. He's got a high, quick release...great arm and spot on accurate.. you can move him around and create lanes. Both aspects probably a slight tick better than Haskins but hard to completely judge given the difference of D faced. I just think his build, his hands, in the cold NE, getting hit by a 310 d line this kid is going to struggle staying on the field.

                            I view him the same way I did Lamar Jackson..,not from a skill point but from a strategy one.....I can't take him top 10...but if they trade back or he's there round 2 I could see the gamble. He's better than Jackson by a mile. He's not quite as good as Mayfield imo but he does somethings better (deep ball).


                            • #15
                              Agreed Murray is a better thrower than Jackson. I don't think he'll hold up the same in the running game given his size. I actually don't think any team will design running plays for him. Most, if not all, of his running will be on scrambles. I don't see any OC designing running plays for a 180 pound QB with any expectation that he'll remain healthy. That's what Washington did with Griffin and we all saw how that turned out.

                              I honestly do not see any way that Gettleman take Murray. Has talent but with that size (I think height is big to an old-timer like Gettleman) and baseball looming I do not see him wasting a top pick on him given the Giants other needs and if he doesn't go by the top of the 2nd round then the baseball money could start looking more attractive.

                              No way I'd take Jackson in the 1-2 rounds. But in the unlikely event he's there in the 4th (or late 3rd in a trade up) I'd start considering him if he shows well at the combine and workouts. He's a project with upside and that's how I'd view him.

                              Good thing is that there should be decent talent at pick 6. I'm hoping that when Fa starts they're able to add a RT so they can concentrate on either getting a QB or building the D.