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  • MrHat
    started a topic Giants Offseason

    Giants Offseason

    Might as well start another "mega thread" for tossing all the offseason/draft rumors and such....

    The whole Eli thing will be answered by March 17th - he's due a roster bonus of 5 mil. If they are going to completely cut ties it'll be before then.....if they pay it, he'll be the QB to start 2019. I don't think Eli will take a paycut....the only remaining question will be if they Giants extend him to lower the cap hit.

    Vernon will be the other big roster decision I think. Dude just can't stay healthy, but at the same time he's the only pass rusher they have. He'd be 8 mil in dead cap or 19.5 against it. If they give him 1 more year he'd be 4 mil in dead cap. I'd be stunned if they kept BOTH Vernon and Eli....I think 1 probably ends up determining the other. My guess? Vernon is gone - this draft has a ton of pass rushers and the FA market actually has some solid talent there too.

    Ogletree is another potential out with 5 mil in deadcap vs. 11.5 in salary, but I think he stays. Jenkins is 14 mil vs. 7 mil not enough savings for what he brings to the field for me, but I guess there's always potential there...I know plenty of folks think he's ripe for it.



    Needs (forgetting QB for the moment):

    Pass rush / OLB
    Free Saftey
    RT
    G
    C

    I know folks will point to CB as well, but I'm okay with Jenkins, Haley (slot/nickle), and giving Beal the shot.

    If they aren't going with a tackle @ #6 then I'd skip it this draft and try to find the answer in FA. I think Taylor and Williams are the only starting tackles in this draft. I'm not a fan of Little. Both those guys would be well served starting on the right side too.

    If Allen is there @6 you take him. However I think there's a number of good pass rush LBers/DE types that will still be around in round 2...so if they go QB or OT its still a spot that can be addressed with the depth of this draft.

    A key for the Giants will be to figure out how to best leverage their horde of late round picks. Find some potential cap hits on other teams and leverage 5-7 type picks for them....you can probably fill G/C with moves like that for guys who are making a little much to be backups on teams moving in different directions. Think reverse Brett Jones this time around. I think most of the OL talent in this draft is just not as exciting as last year. So they might have to do a lot of work on the market.....

    Safety is another area in this draft that only has 1-2 high end guys but to me is loaded with guys who could go anywhere from 3-5...I think they can go the cheap route and address that there with maybe a cheap vet fill in for insurance.

    My take on the QB situation is if they don't love Haskins, Lock, or Jones enough to take them early in this draft...then just keep Eli. If they love one of those guys, then cut Eli right from go and brace for impact by signing a cheap stop gap - Fitz, Bridgewater, Taylor, someone because I don't think any of them are day 1 guys and honestly in this draft possibly not even year 1 guys.... I don't want Eli here as the mentor...I think it leads to an ugly situation no matter what. Team Icons have not transitioned well to the next gen. Combine with this QBs is going to be really interesting. Haskins looked really good in the rose bowl. Jones was very impressive in his bowl win, but still has numerous concerns. I love Lock's arm, but he still makes some odd choices and I'm not sure how much of a leader his is - team seems to love him, but he's an "oh gosh" silent type - he's some weird combo of Eli (personality) and Jay Cutler (arm / decision making) right now.

  • MrHat
    replied
    Cost is everything....if you can tell me you can get Russel Wilson for #6 and your #1 next year at its core....I'd be fine with that NOW (unrealistic I know - just saying). Between the cap space they have next year and the remaining picks this year I think they can put a defense around him. If it's going to cost most of the draft capital for the next 2-3 years or if Seattle is going to Franchise him and kick the can down the road another year or two? Then forget it.

    The Giants need their QB of the future this year so I'm open to all avenues of getting one....

    Leave a comment:


  • dak11
    replied
    I personally donít want to deal anything for him given heís want $30 mil a year going forward. Team is more than 1 QB away and canít afford to deal top picks. Add in they wonít cut Manning at this point this year and it wonít happen. I was just stating thereís more rumors about it that popped up again.

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  • MrHat
    replied
    Seattle can and will franchise him. After that at 32 do you really want to trade for him knowing BEST CASE he has 5 years left?

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  • dak11
    replied
    More talk popping up that Russell Wilson wants to go to NY to play. Donít see it happening unless he eventually gets to be a FA.

    NFL radio talked about this the other day and speculated it could take 4 1st rounders to trade for him. No way any team does that but I could see Wilson play hard ball next year with Seattle and only costing 2 1st rounders since heíll then need to be franchised.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrHat
    replied
    I look at is as the talent in the DLine that you can get a 17 in this draft is pretty close to the talent you'd get a 6 in your typical year....so I really don't care about the board rankings -- Now tell me Allen, Bosa, or Williams falls - okay any of those 3 are top 3 picks in a given year I'd be the first to say okay you gotta pause the QB train (likely Haskins would be gone before 6 in this scenario anyways) with that kind of talent just falling into your lap ... But White? Sweat? Is anyone out there really proclaiming those guys are head and shoulders above Burns, Ferrell, Wilkins, Bush? Heck there's some folks that have Burns a better prospect than Sweat to begin with. Ferrell would have been top 10 had he declared last year. I'd very strongly argue that Haskins / Ferrell is a better 1st round than Sweat / Jones or Grier.


    I go back to the thought that you don't try to "cheat" with your franchise QB. If Jones or Grier aren't worth drafting at 6 then they probably aren't the guy you should be putting the future of the franchise into. QBs are RARELY BPA. Even last year just about everyone on the planet said the best players in the draft were Barkley, Nelson, and Chubb...then you start stacking up the QBs....and that was a class where the QBs were HIGHLY rated. Yes you need to consider value with the pick, but you've also got a run of teams from 10-15 that could very well be looking for a QB - Denver, Cincy, Miami, Washington...let alone some other teams who might be looking into the future a bit - New England, Pitt, LA, etc...why take the risk if he's YOUR guy? Is the loss of draft capital going from say 17 to 9 to ensure you get "your guy" worth the difference in talent from say Sweat to Burns or Ferrell?

    That said you want to see like the wetdream of mocks? Check out Casserly's latest:

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...patriots-go-qb

    Never happen, but I honestly couldn't envision a better scenario than that.



    The Barkley pick is still good in my book if they get the QB this year. You've lost at most a 1/2 season of development in the bigger picture and gained an earlier start to a stable structure around the QB. *IF* they punt again then they better win the superbowl this year or next otherwise the then yeah....the Barkley pick was a bad choice. I'm not sold on Darnold (who yeah I would have picked), Allen, Rosen tho out of that draft yet...has to be at least considered in that scenario.

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  • dak11
    replied
    Agree with kicking it down the line is always a risk. Unless you draft #1 or 2 there's no guarantee you'll get any of the top guys and if they do upgrade the team they could be at 6-8 wins potentially which would cost a fortune to move up from. Old news but another reason why the Barkley pick, as great as he seems to be, was the wrong move last year. Teams will not win without a QB and you can't keep hoping to dig one up in mid-to-late 1st round or trade the farm to move up and get one while staying competitive. People will say that's what KC did but they moved up to pick 10, not pick 1-3. Eagles paid 2 first round picks (#8 overall in 2016 plus 2017 1st rounder), 2018 2nd rounder, 3rd, and a 4th round pick to move up for Wentz. Rams paid 2 first rounders (2016/2017), 2 2nd rounders, and 2 3rd rounders to move from 15 to 1st overall. They did get a 5th and 6th round pick back. It's not cheap to move up for a QB so you need to grab one when you are in position to.

    I think the biggest issue with Haskins is who you bypass for him at 6. I wouldn't be upset if they took him there but I think Gettleman is going to have one of the D-line or White ranked higher on the board when they pick. About 10-14 days ago Schefter commented that the 2 QB's he hears most connected to the Giants are Jones and Grier. I don't know if he really has a source or just speculating but if true my guess is that they feel they can get Jones at 17 or Grier at 37 if Jones isn't there and still come away with the top player for the D at 6.

    I'd prefer they go with Haskins and let him develop but I just keep thinking that they're targeting Jones at 17 and might even move up a few spots to take him.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrHat
    replied
    I still want Haskins at 6....I dont see any way he makes it to 17. He moves around the pocket well...great accuracy...does a really outstanding job going through progressions. Local kid. I dunno I really view this as a Barkley situation - guy wants to go here...has the talent to do so...is an intelligent team first guy who the media would love...don't over think it. I agree that him not coming to the draft is a bad sign tho. While I'm sure folks would cite family and his humble nature...I go back to this guy gets "it" -- he seems very savvy he knows what it means to show or not show for the draft. If he was confident he was going top 10 he'd be there IMO.

    There's a lot of hype swirling around Grier now even to the point where he might be a late first / early 2nd pick when I'd say after the senior bowl and combine he was a day 3 guy....I dunno the guy looks like he's going to dislocate his arm throwing the football. His passes all seem to have a wobble to them as well. With that motion/windup he's certainly not a quick strike QB. He had a horrible senior bowl week/game...crap at the combine. I get it, you dont sum up a guy in a handful of day, but I was not impressed at all. I like Jones more than Grier and I wouldn't even think of Jones until probably the 3rd round. To me, Grier would be a Laulette/Webb 2.0 and I'm tired of wasting 3rd/4th rounders on QBs. Now is not the time to be taking stabs in the dark and finding cheap backups....its QB of the future or none. Certainly all indication have been that they'll be skipping and at least based on last year Getty hasn't shown himself to be one to do this for smoke screens.

    I'd be fine with Lock, Haskins, or Murray but the rest of these QBs just again seem like a bunch of Lauletta's / Webb's to me. Either strong arms with and questionable decision making / mechanics (Jackson, Grier, Stidham, - heck you can put Lock in here too, but I think his ceiling is far above most of these guys). Or smart decision makers with arm strength issues or accuracy issues (Finley, Jones). If the Giants go dumpster diving on a QB this year Stidham would be a decent risk if he's like 5th or 6th round.

    Kicking the can down to 2020 seems really risky at this point. If this team gets some D and finishes the line they'll be in the 7+ wins area and a couple of teams look to be already positioning themselves for 2020 - Miami, Cincy, it might be impossible to trade up for the guy you want.

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  • dak11
    replied
    It could just be a lot of smoke but there are a ton of rumors starting to go around that Haskins is falling in the draft and could actually be the 4th QB on some teams boards at this point. Now Haskins said he won't be attending the draft which could be another thing pointing to the fact that he won't go as early as originally planned. Most top prospects do not want to sit in the draft room waiting for their names to be called (ie Rodgers) while the camera's track their every move. Rosen also being available could be viewed as 5 QB's available this draft.

    This seems to put more stock in the fact that the Giants are not looking at him at 6. He's a local kid and if they gave him an indication he's a possibility at 6 I'd think he would be there. Makes that pick 17 a lot more interesting if he happens to fall into the teens or the talk that the Giants don't feel they need a QB this year could also be accurate.

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  • OrangeNblueNmyVeins
    replied
    Rosen would be a dumpster fire here. No thanks

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  • dak11
    replied
    Guess it's all what you want to believe - ie Rosen. ESPNís Jordan Ranaan is claiming that the Giants are not in love with Rosen will not even consider giving up the 17th pick (What the Card's would ask for) and they also seem to be against giving up that 2nd rounder for him. From what he gathers they'd be OK with a 3rd for him.

    This still seems too much like a NE move with that 32nd pick. Bellichek gets great value along with a potential chip to flip later on or groom him to take over for Brady while the Card's get that 1st round pick they seem to want to save face.

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  • MrHat
    replied
    Some takes from the other side - https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles...razy-offseason

    Can certainly blow this out of proportion, but the "not living, eating, breathing football" that this portrays was one of the concerns on Rosen out of college. That he'd have many side interests which would hinder the "all in" type of player you want, especially at QB. You can only imagine that would be amplified in NY.

    On the flip side Gettleman spent more time on Rosen than I remember - https://247sports.com/nfl/new-york-g...ive-117527235/

    More people seem to be "confirming" that the Giants are indeed the team that offered their 2nd round to Arizona...tho to be fair they have all been FS1 / Bleacher Report folks who roam in largely the same circles as Cowherd...but interesting. Still wouldn't give higher than a 2nd....while the Patriots could give a 1st I don't think they see a rush to do so...and if the Giants really wanted to they could toss in a later round pick (4th or 5th) to get basically the same value (and some people will argue 37 is worth more than 32 anyways). Same deal with the Chargers (the 3rd team - #28). Why would they give up their first rounder after a 12-4 season in a shitty setup?

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  • MrHat
    replied
    I kind of view Oliver the same way I look at Gary. Both are freaks. One has a general question on production. The other has a major question on position....but really I think both come down to position/usage. Oliver was his most productive inside...but he's not really strong enough to play inside in the NFL. Despite being an athletic freak he hasn't really shown the ability to play in isolated in space like a OLB. So how do you let him blitz without getting man handled by guards/tackles....AND not allow him to get exploited by RB's / TE's in routes beyond the los? This is where someone like JPP had an edge over a guy like Oliver because his strength/leverage along with an insane wingspan let him mold easily between inside/outside...but even there this defense didn't think he could slide into LB role.

    I think either are well worth a gamble at 10+ if the coaches have a plan for him....I wouldn't go for either at 6. Position and usage is going to be SUCH a key for either of those guys at the next level - this one has to be in the hands of the coaches where they know the schemes and roles better than any of us.

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  • dak11
    replied
    Oliver in discussion at 6? Probably not but he put up prolific pro day numbers. I usually don't view workout numbers in regards to evaluating players but these numbers are off the chart and some feel he might be able to play LB at his weight given those movement skills or be a stand up LB/pass rusher.

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...olific-pro-day

    Ľ A 4.73 40-yard dash, akin to Anquan Boldin (4.72).

    Ľ A 4.22 in the short shuttle drill, topping Saquon Barkley (4.24).

    Ľ A 7.15 three-cone time, besting Jason Pierre Paul (7.18).

    Ľ A 36-inch vertical jump, just shy of Von Miller (37).

    Ľ A 10-foot broad jump, equaling Amari Cooper.

    All that was at 287 pounds.
    Last edited by dak11; 03-29-2019, 12:12 PM.

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  • MrHat
    replied
    Originally posted by dak11 View Post
    Problem with His completion % is a little misleading last year. He was under constant pressure and had a lot of dropped passes. Not sure if this is accurate but I saw on one site that 7% of his passes were drops last year - 21 total. All QB's have drops but if you add them in he was right around 60% completion while getting killed - 45 sacks.
    I've heard....and again I didnt watch, but that he had an extreme tendency to hold the ball far too long without moving his feet last year and some very poor pocket awareness. Not that his line wasn't crap...but that the combination of all 3 things made the numbers MUCH worse than it should have been. The awareness was supposedly another position part of his game.

    The drops side...I don't care....the Giants WRs aren't gonna help him much there. Eli has been among the leaders there for the last few years.

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