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The Fire Willie Thread Part II

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  • #61
    Wow, in "Fire Willie I" it was me vs. the world. This time around, I'm on the side of the majority. I'm glad to see that the MoFo is coming around.
    My bone bruise is only at 79.52%.

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    • #62
      Could you let Willie blow it before you fire him! This past 4 games have been hell. Everything backfired but until we are out of the playoffs the fire Willie campaign is premature. 1# they won't fire him this season. #2 Who's out there that's gonna do a better job? If you can't handle the eb and flow of a MLB season, don't watch the games!
      WWW.MYSPACE.COM/THOSEHIPPOCRITES

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      • #63
        Originally posted by MajorRanger35 View Post
        The first sign of trouble? I've been ripping on the 'Boat for weeks, even while it looked like the Mets would run away with the NL East. You, of all people, can vouch for me there.

        By the way:

        Pinella
        Cox
        Scioscia
        Oh by the way was I talking to you? Nope, so do tell of the win creations of each, how do they create wins, especially the first two. This should be real interesting for a guy who does not think coaches and managers make a difference the first two I am real interested.

        Don't even bother with Scioscia I think he is the best manager in the game, although I am certain he does not "create" wins.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by MajorRanger35 View Post
          Wow, in "Fire Willie I" it was me vs. the world. This time around, I'm on the side of the majority. I'm glad to see that the MoFo is coming around.
          seems to me you are still hanging with the same sludge

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by 15 Day DL Alou View Post
            No pal, I am just not going to discredit him at the first sign of trouble like you yokels. Since you are so keen on the rest of the managers in the game give me three managers adept at "creating" wins.
            Bobby V - his team constantly played above themselves because he had them motivated and put the right people out there at the right time
            Lou Pinella - Motivater by trade who has taken a crappy Cubs team and kept their heads in the race...even when there wasn't one
            Jim Leyland- Took a lousy Detroit team and with hardly any new addtions, made them instantly into WS contenders
            Joe Girardi- who choose not to manage this year because he did not want any of the vacancies. Took a lousy Marlins team from 2005 and made them contenders in 2006 with the only addition being Dan Uggla. that same Marlins teams blows this year.
            Bruce Bochy- his SF teams were always in the hunt, leaves for SD and where is SF? Where is SD?
            Ron Gardenhire- With absolutely no payroll and a revolving door of players has had the Twins in the Hunt every single year.
            "Goaltender is a normal job. Sure. How would you like it if at your job, every time you made the slightest mistake a little red light went on over your head and 18,000 people stood up and screamed at you?" - Jaques Plante, goalie

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Shooter Mcgavin View Post
              Could you let Willie blow it before you fire him! This past 4 games have been hell. Everything backfired but until we are out of the playoffs the fire Willie campaign is premature. 1# they won't fire him this season. #2 Who's out there that's gonna do a better job? If you can't handle the eb and flow of a MLB season, don't watch the games!
              None of us are expecting Willie to be fired during the season. Putting the clubhouse in chaos would only make things worse. We would, however, like to see him replaced in the offseason.

              I made a list of managers that I thought would be better in Part I. I'll go fetch it.

              As for the ebb and flow thing, again, I've been captaining the USS FireWillie for weeks. I have witnesses. Read Part I for more proof.

              The list: Joe Girardi, Mike Hargrove, Frank Robinson. Manny Acta probably would've been better, but I don't see him leaving Washington.
              Last edited by MajorRanger35; 08-30-2007, 06:26 PM.
              My bone bruise is only at 79.52%.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by 15 Day DL Alou View Post
                Oh by the way was I talking to you? Nope, so do tell of the win creations of each, how do they create wins, especially the first two. This should be real interesting for a guy who does not think coaches and managers make a difference the first two I am real interested.

                Don't even bother with Scioscia I think he is the best manager in the game, although I am certain he does not "create" wins.

                I never said they don't make a difference; I said they make a much smaller difference. I stand by that. Those 5-10 games that they do flip make a world of difference in the standings.

                Pinella and Cox are much better strategic managers than Willie. They would've had someone up in the 'pen there. This is extremely difficult to prove, and this would be extremely difficult to prove re: Scioscia as well.
                My bone bruise is only at 79.52%.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by MajorRanger35 View Post
                  I never said they don't make a difference; I said they make a much smaller difference. I stand by that. Those 5-10 games that they do flip make a world of difference in the standings.

                  Pinella and Cox are much better strategic managers than Willie. They would've had someone up in the 'pen there. This is extremely difficult to prove, and this would be extremely difficult to prove re: Scioscia as well.
                  The same guy that whilst with the Rays thought it would be a good idea to start the game with a reliever and work backwards?
                  "There have been artists who have failed to capture dichotomy as beautifully as the Mets have in playing Wilmer Flores at shortstop and Juan Lagares in center field."

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Led, the Revenge View Post
                    The same guy that whilst with the Rays thought it would be a good idea to start the game with a reliever and work backwards?
                    LOL. He was basically begging to be fired at that point, if I remember correctly.

                    That definitely was hilarious, though. Didn't Colorado consider doing that for a while?
                    My bone bruise is only at 79.52%.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Deepleft34 View Post
                      Bobby V - his team constantly played above themselves because he had them motivated and put the right people out there at the right time
                      Lou Pinella - Motivater by trade who has taken a crappy Cubs team and kept their heads in the race...even when there wasn't one
                      Jim Leyland- Took a lousy Detroit team and with hardly any new addtions, made them instantly into WS contenders
                      Joe Girardi- who choose not to manage this year because he did not want any of the vacancies. Took a lousy Marlins team from 2005 and made them contenders in 2006 with the only addition being Dan Uggla. that same Marlins teams blows this year.
                      Bruce Bochy- his SF teams were always in the hunt, leaves for SD and where is SF? Where is SD?Ron Gardenhire- With absolutely no payroll and a revolving door of players has had the Twins in the Hunt every single year.
                      Bochy is just hysterical, but I digress.

                      Don't give me "feelings" or "hunches" give me how they create wins.

                      Why was Pinella unable to motivate the D-Rays? Surely you will say payroll. Why did his motivation not get the Mariners over the hump? Surely you will say the Yankees had a higher payroll. Why when he was the Yankee skipper did they not get over the hump? He WALKED in willingly and lead the crappy Cubs to their craptacular start and don't try to feed me a lack of talent there.

                      Jim Leyland inherited NO good young pitching to go with Guillen, Ordonez and Rodriquez. It was all his wisdom. He never had a BOUGHT roster in 1997. He never had talent with Pittsburgh. What happend in Colorado?

                      You should reflect on Gardenhires "revolving door" of players it does not twist and turn nearly as much as you seem to think. He punts every October anyhow.

                      Girardis success might have had nothing to do with the Marlins falling so far off the map that teams began to take the lightly as they scampered back before imploding. Plus he left that starting staff overworked and in shambles.

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                      • #71
                        Willy has won since he got here, but I would take Bobby V over him in a heartbeat. His biggest asset was being able to take the heat off of the players when the sh*t hit the fan...

                        And looking at this lineup he had to work with, I really can't fault him for the '98 collapse. The pitching staff was no 1970 Orioles either...

                        http://www.ultimatemets.com/gamedetail.php?gameno=5902
                        "Jeff is the problem with the organization, and he is never going to realize that. He cannot help himself. He has to be involved. He will never hire anyone who will not let him have major input. He will not hire anyone who does not run every personnel decision through him."

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by MajorRanger35 View Post
                          I never said they don't make a difference; I said they make a much smaller difference. I stand by that. Those 5-10 games that they do flip make a world of difference in the standings.

                          Pinella and Cox are much better strategic managers than Willie. They would've had someone up in the 'pen there. This is extremely difficult to prove, and this would be extremely difficult to prove re: Scioscia as well.
                          because you can't prove it, because it is your emotions, it is fine to not like Randolph, it is fine to think he is terrible, just do not expect to go unchallenged on something that purely emotional content

                          And finally if Pinella and Cox were such strategic wunderkinds why oh why do they share a single ring in common as managers?

                          And the answer is not that either are terrible managers but that managing baseball is far more difficult than you possibly give it credit for.

                          Do you think for example that Bobby Cox did not want Mark Wohlers to throw a hard riding fastball over his third pitch to Jim Leyritz? Is there a strategy there other than taking over every facet of the game, ala Tony LaRussa.

                          Randolph did the exact right thing today, he asked his closer, who is to save games to save the team from being swept and go for six outs, ONCE!

                          Now you could argue, that after the 8th maybe he could have gone to Heilman and Wagner did his job getting the lefties. But if that back fired in hindsight he would have been hung out to dry too.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by 15 Day DL Alou View Post
                            Bochy is just hysterical, but I digress.

                            Don't give me "feelings" or "hunches" give me how they create wins.

                            Why was Pinella unable to motivate the D-Rays? Surely you will say payroll. Why did his motivation not get the Mariners over the hump? Surely you will say the Yankees had a higher payroll. Why when he was the Yankee skipper did they not get over the hump? He WALKED in willingly and lead the crappy Cubs to their craptacular start and don't try to feed me a lack of talent there.

                            Jim Leyland inherited NO good young pitching to go with Guillen, Ordonez and Rodriquez. It was all his wisdom. He never had a BOUGHT roster in 1997. He never had talent with Pittsburgh. What happend in Colorado?

                            You should reflect on Gardenhires "revolving door" of players it does not twist and turn nearly as much as you seem to think. He punts every October anyhow.

                            Girardis success might have had nothing to do with the Marlins falling so far off the map that teams began to take the lightly as they scampered back before imploding. Plus he left that starting staff overworked and in shambles.
                            I'm not going to argue with you about Bochy or Leyland, because you're right.

                            Pinella won 116, count 'em, 116 games in 2001 with Seattle. There's no doubt that they were the best team in baseball that year. The postseason is a crapshoot, due to the extremely high variance in baseball (this is why the regular season has to be so long). Pinella had the best team, and they got knocked out in a short series. It happens.

                            Ditto for Gardenhire. He's done a superb job every year, many times with mediocre teams (Radke was their ace!) but hasn't hit the jackpot in the postseason crapshoot. Yet again, it happens.

                            The Marlins blow. They would've been worse with a lesser manager last year. Girardi squeezed water from a stone there. Do you think the 2006 version of the Marlins was any better than the 2005 or 2007 version? I don't.

                            Any of Pinella, Gardenhire or Girardi would be an improvement for the Mets. It's too bad that Willie's not going anywhere.
                            Last edited by MajorRanger35; 08-30-2007, 06:58 PM.
                            My bone bruise is only at 79.52%.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by 15 Day DL Alou View Post
                              because you can't prove it, because it is your emotions, it is fine to not like Randolph, it is fine to think he is terrible, just do not expect to go unchallenged on something that purely emotional content

                              And finally if Pinella and Cox were such strategic wunderkinds why oh why do they share a single ring in common as managers?

                              And the answer is not that either are terrible managers but that managing baseball is far more difficult than you possibly give it credit for.

                              Do you think for example that Bobby Cox did not want Mark Wohlers to throw a hard riding fastball over his third pitch to Jim Leyritz? Is there a strategy there other than taking over every facet of the game, ala Tony LaRussa.

                              Randolph did the exact right thing today, he asked his closer, who is to save games to save the team from being swept and go for six outs, ONCE!

                              Now you could argue, that after the 8th maybe he could have gone to Heilman and Wagner did his job getting the lefties. But if that back fired in hindsight he would have been hung out to dry too.

                              Pinella and Cox actually have a combined two rings, 1990 and 1995, but that's irrelevant.

                              Pinella led his 2001 team to the best season any team has had since 1908. Does that count as any proof? No other manager was going to find a way to win more than 116 games with that team that season.

                              I have no problem with Willie trying to stretch Wagner for 6 outs today. My problem is that there was no one up in the bullpen in the 9th. At some point, Willie should've realized "Crap, Wagner's out of gas" as he reached 40+ pitches. At some point someone needs to get up out there. It never happened.

                              As for the Wohlers thing: variance. You're talking about one pitch in a 162 game season, followed by three rounds of playoffs. That one pitch doesn't cancel out an excellent season by Cox' squad.
                              My bone bruise is only at 79.52%.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by MajorRanger35 View Post
                                Pinella and Cox actually have a combined two rings, 1990 and 1995, but that's irrelevant.
                                Yawm RIF. I never said differently.

                                Originally posted by MajorRanger35 View Post
                                Pinella led his 2001 team to the best season any team has had since 1908. Does that count as any proof? No other manager was going to find a way to win more than 116 games with that team that season.
                                I do not buy regular season is any less a crapshoot than the playoffs, and in the end no one cares that the Mariners won 116 games in the regular season, because they failed to win even 7 in the playoffs.

                                Originally posted by MajorRanger35 View Post
                                I have no problem with Willie trying to stretch Wagner for 6 outs today. My problem is that there was no one up in the bullpen in the 9th. At some point, Willie should've realized "Crap, Wagner's out of gas" as he reached 40+ pitches. At some point someone needs to get up out there. It never happened.
                                If your multi million dollar closer can not toss 50 pitches after taking a week off in a huge game, when can he?

                                Originally posted by MajorRanger35 View Post
                                As for the Wohlers thing: variance. You're talking about one pitch in a 162 game season, followed by three rounds of playoffs. That one pitch doesn't cancel out an excellent season by Cox' squad.
                                So is it fair to say that one pitch by Aaron Heilman, to Yadier Molina of all people was "variance" for a team that won its division going a way with a rag o muffin starting pitching staff and went into the playoffs with Tom Glavine followed by Steve Trachsel as its most accomplished pitcher. Probably not, because Willie Randolph was the manager.

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