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  • #46
    Definitely hardbto go thru scenarios until lottery order decided..which because of all the uncertainty/weakness of this draft us why rumors are rampant that several teams "could" look to move down...basically they looking to draft for fit ..so vision is very cloudy til then..but if GS win lottery..could certainly see them moving down..and still getting guy the covet..

    You get Ball...(hopefully with not having to move up) what then becomes step 2? Wing shooter 3& D.. i say..
    ACCEPTED TRUTH: That I will be ROYALLY F**CKED OVER by EVERY TEAM I ROOT FOR (METS, JETS & KNICKS) !!!

    Citifield & Mets...the place where Sluggers Careers go to DIE"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTLzr2Al_Os

    Comment


    • #47
      If Ball is the PG it definitely moves RJ to the 3. I think you'd want some flexibility and someone who can actually guard a PG at the 2. Whether that's Frank or another draft pick or a FA whatever.

      I'd lean back toward FVV ....or from the bargin bin - what about a Langston Galloway return? Those kind of undersized combo guards who have range that play D so that you can freely switch Lonzo / 2 / RJ. I guess if the right 3 & D wing is there you can do that too, but out of the blocks likely it would still lead to LaMelo guarding a PG...which I see as a big no no. Let Lonzo go guard some other teams 3 & D wing. He looks better to me off ball than on ball on D and has the size/length to challenge wings.

      Again just another reason why I really dont want Ball here...he's such a wonky fit with the way this team is built it really limits the flexibility on how to build the rest of the roster when you go into a season with 4 starters who you know can't shoot from outside of the paint - Ball, RJ, Mitch, Randle.....

      I just keep circling back at Cole or Hali just being far superior fits

      Comment


      • #48
        Just some more rambling from me....

        If the Knicks are top 3 they are taking Ball. I've resigned myself to it...so be it. It's really not a terrible fit, but you're banking on 1. Him/His dad shutting up. 2. Him developing SOME consistency on a jumper. 3. Thibs beating him into playing SOME defense. You guys know I'm not a big believe in 2/3 ever happening so that makes #1 not worth the risk to me, but I can't deny if he ever did his handle/vision/confidence is unmatched in this draft. I don't think GS, Atlanta, Cleveland, Minn would go for him even tho there have been some rumors with Clev (how many PGs are they going to draft!?!?) and Atlanta (Ball/Trae sounds like a disaster to me but whatever). Detroit and Chicago I think would love to plug in that "star" power, but the odds are if they Knicks get a top 3 pick they'll get him. My druthers in the top 3 I'd go Edwards - again has issues but there's scary athletic potential there.

        After that I think it becomes 2 sections a 4-6 pick or 7+ areas

        In the 4-6 range I think I'm looking at Advija.... I admit I'm not in love with this prospect, but there's an interesting mix of handle, vision, defense and shooting. Like Ball his future will come down to his shot. His form looks good, his numbers haven't been...BUT he actually plays D and again given his handle/vision it might let the Knicks run a BIG team of Frank, RJ, DA that would create some really good matchups defensively, while having just enough spacing. Again this is an upside play...not sure I'm a total believer, I definitely don't buy the "Donic 2.0" talk (Luka had a mans body at 18 and was far more refined as a shooter)- but in terms of the projected top 10 he's probably the 3rd best defender, 3rd best handle, and 3rd best vision on a 6'9" frame.....that's interesting....

        Once you get past him in the next range its all the guys we've been talking about - Cole, Haliburton, Vassel, Hayes. They all have strengths and weaknesses...I'd be fine with any of them in the 6-9 range. Right this instant I'm probably in this order - Cole (On ball D, Scoring, Shooting, Handle), Vassel (3&D might be the 2nd best defender in the whole draft), Hali (Shooting, Passing, off-ball D), and Hayes (RAW - I still can't peg this kid, but the stats and highlights are really interesting - He might be the biggest boom/bust guy in the draft even over Wiseman) in that order, but I can be talked into any of them pending how we think they'll approach FA.




        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by MrHat View Post
          Just some more rambling from me....

          If the Knicks are top 3 they are taking Ball. I've resigned myself to it...so be it. It's really not a terrible fit, but you're banking on 1. Him/His dad shutting up. 2. Him developing SOME consistency on a jumper. 3. Thibs beating him into playing SOME defense. You guys know I'm not a big believe in 2/3 ever happening so that makes #1 not worth the risk to me, but I can't deny if he ever did his handle/vision/confidence is unmatched in this draft. I don't think GS, Atlanta, Cleveland, Minn would go for him even tho there have been some rumors with Clev (how many PGs are they going to draft!?!?) and Atlanta (Ball/Trae sounds like a disaster to me but whatever). Detroit and Chicago I think would love to plug in that "star" power, but the odds are if they Knicks get a top 3 pick they'll get him. My druthers in the top 3 I'd go Edwards - again has issues but there's scary athletic potential there.

          After that I think it becomes 2 sections a 4-6 pick or 7+ areas

          In the 4-6 range I think I'm looking at Advija.... I admit I'm not in love with this prospect, but there's an interesting mix of handle, vision, defense and shooting. Like Ball his future will come down to his shot. His form looks good, his numbers haven't been...BUT he actually plays D and again given his handle/vision it might let the Knicks run a BIG team of Frank, RJ, DA that would create some really good matchups defensively, while having just enough spacing. Again this is an upside play...not sure I'm a total believer, I definitely don't buy the "Donic 2.0" talk (Luka had a mans body at 18 and was far more refined as a shooter)- but in terms of the projected top 10 he's probably the 3rd best defender, 3rd best handle, and 3rd best vision on a 6'9" frame.....that's interesting....

          Once you get past him in the next range its all the guys we've been talking about - Cole, Haliburton, Vassel, Hayes. They all have strengths and weaknesses...I'd be fine with any of them in the 6-9 range. Right this instant I'm probably in this order - Cole (On ball D, Scoring, Shooting, Handle), Vassel (3&D might be the 2nd best defender in the whole draft), Hali (Shooting, Passing, off-ball D), and Hayes (RAW - I still can't peg this kid, but the stats and highlights are really interesting - He might be the biggest boom/bust guy in the draft even over Wiseman) in that order, but I can be talked into any of them pending how we think they'll approach FA.



          Im in 1000% agreement on all..

          I too see Ball the pick my management no matter what...and have all the same concerns...but like the name itself of process says.."Lottery" is how I see it..so if they get pick that high ..then may as well give it a shot..and pray it pans out.. Agree that at this point.. Deni has become my next choice...and still leaning towards Hali next..but not totally ready to lock that one in..

          I too see the competition for Ball as Det. and Chicago as the main comp for Ball..maybe CHARLOTTE if Jordan gets a hard on..

          And what if #3 and BALL+Edwards gone?? Wiseman sitting there..roll dice with him and move him or Mitch?

          Assuming Ball... what to do with 2nd 1st?? Would be wonderful/perfect to trade up (Dallas Pick? (s) for Vassel.

          Assuming Deni... what to do with 2nd 1st?? Would it be worth trading up for Lewis..I know you don't love him..but think their might be something there and a fit with rest of squad..or if Cole drops enough? (I presume your choice)

          Another wild card.. Poku? very raw/young...but could be good..
          ACCEPTED TRUTH: That I will be ROYALLY F**CKED OVER by EVERY TEAM I ROOT FOR (METS, JETS & KNICKS) !!!

          Citifield & Mets...the place where Sluggers Careers go to DIE"

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTLzr2Al_Os

          Comment


          • #50
            I'm not trading up in this draft.


            ​​​I still have hopes of Jalen Smith falling for that 2nd pick. If needing a pg I think Grant Riller will be there and I like him over Lewis. Hell Nico might be there with how much his stock has fallen. I tend to look for the big guys with this pick tho. I think there's a lot of good glue/defensive 4/5s in this spot that this team needs. Ramsey is still kinda interesting here too. He's a guy who I think his elite iso game might translate better in the pros than college. Just too big of range to narrow it down right now.



            I've thought a lot about Wiseman. Does he have more upside than Mitch? Can they ever play together? At the moment I say no to both. I'm not totally sold in either but right this instant that's my answer. His mid-range shot isn't as big of a mystery as Mitch hitting 3s in practice, BUT it's not a sure thing either. Mitch is the better defender. In today's NBA even with freak athletic ability don't think you can run a twin towers setup. That said he seems like a crazy good fit for the warriors so if be surprised if he's on the board for long.

            #3 I'd prolly just go Deni. He's the easiest fit in this whole draft... Can play in any system... As a point forward or off ball. Plays good D. Great upside if his form finally translates to production. But at worst he's an easy plug and play glue guy that fills in really any gap as a 3rd option.

            Comment


            • #51
              Ok..agreed on nay to wiseman/mitch combo which is why I think they would move mitch potentially if it were to happen.

              No knowledge on Riller to comment..but if ball indeed the pick..i just think Vassel is the perfect fit with ball and rj and mitch..and be tempted to move up for him.

              ACCEPTED TRUTH: That I will be ROYALLY F**CKED OVER by EVERY TEAM I ROOT FOR (METS, JETS & KNICKS) !!!

              Citifield & Mets...the place where Sluggers Careers go to DIE"

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTLzr2Al_Os

              Comment


              • #52
                I don't see the point in trading Mitch - I think he actually has more value to us than around the league. Like I mean we're sitting here comparing him to a potential top 3 pick in the draft - Are you getting an unprotected 1st round pick from a bad team for Mitch? Are you getting multiple unprotected 1st round picks from borderline teams? So just more reason not to go down the Wiseman hole.

                I agree 100% that Vassel would be a tremendous matchup offensively with RJ/LaMelo....here's my question - who's defending opposing PGs? LaMelo almost never did while playing for the Aussies. They basically purposely put him on off ball guys. RJ? I mean RJ proved to be better defensively than the rep on him in college and he's certainly stronger on-ball than off, but we also saw him struggle trying to do some of the last year. Vassel is great defensively and could effectively switch 1-4, but I'm not sure I want him primarily on guys like Kyrie...... and this goes back to my LaMelo worries...you draft LaMelo and RJ now becomes a 3 and you need that kind of combo guard at the 2 - whether thats a full realized Frank or a FVV or someone like that who can go out, play without the ball, hit some shots on O, but can D it up on a primary handler on D. So I can't give up future #1s to move up just to make that combo happen.

                My crazy thought on the perfect match with Vassel / RJ in this draft? Cole. Vassel keeps it simple for Cole on offense who we know isn't the worlds best passer, but he can easily get a step on anyone and find the open guy...you've got nice defense 1-3 and 2 guys with good handles to help initiate offense. Even tho I'm not a huge fan you're onto something with Kira / Vassel combo as well - as Lewis without shooters around him I just see being a disaster (terrible passer/vision for a PG). But getting that Cole/Vassel combo just isn't going to happen - I'm sure I could dream up some scenario where the Knicks take a top 3 pick, trade back, put up some extra picks package them with the Clippers pick to move back up and pull it off. but not happening.

                Also - this is going to sound like a knock, but it really isn't meant as one. Vassel is getting overrated in this draft....because of this draft. It's a weak one. The best players have massive flaws. He's one of the very few who's a sure thing. Not a tremendous ceiling, but you know he's totally capable as a 3&D player with the right size, athletic traits, and BBIQ...that makes him valuable in a draft of unknows, but I wonder can someone explain to me how he's any better than Bridges was a few years ago? A very solid pick from say 9-15 range, but there's a lot of talk going around right now that Vassel is right on the edge of the top 5-6. I gotta swing harder in that range given all the holes in the Knicks. If they drop in the draft? No issue with grabbing him.

                Grant Riller FYI - https://www.thestepien.com/2020/02/2...outing-report/

                Comment


                • #53
                  I can see RJ being the defender of PG if BAll were to be the pg. I have more faith in him improving as a defender over a 3pt shooter tbh.

                  Far as Mitch..I dont see trade either..but if for whatever reason..Ball...edwards..Deni are all off the baord and Wiseman there..their "could" be a sceanrio that Knicks take him and change plans/structure of team..easier to get a 4 that can be lunch pail D to pair with Wiseman...Mitch is and will be a better defender no doubt..but I conversley dont thing he will be better offensively in long term than Wiseman either..so just another way of putting puzzle together if the board were to fall that way..not syaing it will or should happen..

                  Vassell is being viewed as next Kawhi..he actually has much better tnumber than Kawhi had as a collegian..and probably a potentially better shooter. did not here he was being talked about WITHIN top 10..had seen just outside..

                  Tx for the report on Riller..could be a good 6th man type..

                  Mocks I seen have him being there for Knicks in 2nd round..

                  http://www.tankathon.com/mock_draft

                  Hali being the the 1st rd pick chosen by knicks..which way this board played out would likely be choice (only debate would be Cole)

                  I dont see Cole as the ball handler this team needs..

                  I don't believe MN would take ball with russel there..think they would be extremely terrible defensivly and horrible fit..could see them take Deni instead..which mens ball would be there at 4 for Hawks..who I also dont see..but anywho..will put a pin on that till the order gets finalized..but back to other names/options for other picks..

                  Has Knicks taking Tyler Bey..and Skylar Mays (whom looking at video shown) seems intriguing..great finsher at rim and range on jumper to boot..seems like a hard worker form what i read..so would not be mind him in 2nd as well..

                  But the 2nd #1 pick still a total wildcard..all your targets off the board in this scenario..





                  ACCEPTED TRUTH: That I will be ROYALLY F**CKED OVER by EVERY TEAM I ROOT FOR (METS, JETS & KNICKS) !!!

                  Citifield & Mets...the place where Sluggers Careers go to DIE"

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTLzr2Al_Os

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I don't know anything about Mays to be honest. Tillie or Bane kind have been the two I've been eyeing for round 2.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Nor I..but if you click on his name of the site I sent you..links to stats and videos on him..seem interesting..

                      Bane I have read a lil on..and think will be scooped up top of round 2..
                      ACCEPTED TRUTH: That I will be ROYALLY F**CKED OVER by EVERY TEAM I ROOT FOR (METS, JETS & KNICKS) !!!

                      Citifield & Mets...the place where Sluggers Careers go to DIE"

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTLzr2Al_Os

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Wow yeah interesting there....dude can jump out of the gym that's for sure. All the reports I read say "hope he can find his shot" but the numbers look great to me....granted his previous years there's some questions BUT look at the FT%. Even his worst season was over 80% from the line....that's usually a good indication there's something there. I'd hazard that his near 40% from 3 is probably a fluke, but if he can be in the 36% ish range - I look at his soph year and that looks like a good balance between his senior #s and his low end numbers. They rave about handle which I think is such a critical skill in the NBA. Count me interested.

                        It looks like his major issues is his tweener height/wing span. A little small for the 2, but he's not a PG. Pesky defender, but without the elite size to really be a very good one. Honestly? Sounds a lot like FVV in a lot of ways... His height/wing span probably not issues for the Knicks with guys like RJ and Frank around. This is the same kind of stuff I like about Riller - Mays goes about it a bit different with his high flying acts, but both look like big time spark plugs (tho likely streaky)...toss Ramsey into that mix as well.

                        I missed the Tyler Bey projection - meh. Bey is a good defender and smart player, but he's not going to give you much on offense. He shoots a decent % because he never shoots unless he's wide open. Ex: He attempted 50 3's in 100 career college games. That would be a really disappointing pick to me. Now I see its Jaden McDaniels ....meh there too. He's got an interesting ceiling, but garbage BBIQ. I'd much rather Isaiah Stewart. Built like a tank. High IQ. Think Randle without the spins to no where.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Yes...agreed on Mays...see the same thing..and I too dont see a problem with his shot..looks like good range and form to me..and was indeed impressed with his FT shooting as well as his ability to get to the rim and finish..very soft touch...I like him in 2nd..and agreed on Bey..find Mays more impressive then him tbh...

                          2nd #1 pick (and what seemingly going to be available) I think I would look to try and trade up lil (into teens if guy I love is there) or see what player in NBA I can get that can be useful piece for the puzzle..maybe coupled with taking on a bad contract..and that pick..something can happpen?? IDk..


                          What say you on Heild? guy who clearly may be on outs..(as they likely to hedge bets/and invest in Bogs) I know he is noy a great defender which would make me leery..but he can shoot..and finish form what I saw..I just dont think he would fit with RJ and say if Ball were added (defensively) SAme for LEvine..whom now that bulls canned Coach..doubt they move now anyway. What about CJ Mc Cullom? That type of player would seem like a fit..mileage in tank..so perhaps could be made available..

                          Are you still interested in Joe Harris ? Better defender..and only will cost $$..palying well now..

                          Another guy I see that has been playing well in the bubble that will be FA..Jerami Grant 3 & D...may be a nice fit.. Of course this would all change depending on the Top pick Knicks get.. but for sake of argument ..Ball..
                          ACCEPTED TRUTH: That I will be ROYALLY F**CKED OVER by EVERY TEAM I ROOT FOR (METS, JETS & KNICKS) !!!

                          Citifield & Mets...the place where Sluggers Careers go to DIE"

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTLzr2Al_Os

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Levine I worry about because of the Thibs factor....I don't like him. Don't want him here. Heild...- look he's a good player, but he's 28 and is owed about 22 per over the next 4. So what do you have to give up to get him? You have to pay him AND give up assets for him....that's not really the kind of move I want the Knicks to make now. If it was either/or I'd be interested, but not both.

                            Joe Harris would be great...but I think the contract he's going to get is going to be overvalued. The Nets have said locking him up is a priority....are you willing to go 4/60? I'm not.

                            First I want Dotson back (RFA) and Bullock's option picked up. So that's the base line of player you've got to find better than. I like Caldwell-Pope, but not sure he's a massive upgrade over either of those 2.

                            I want a combo guard - FVV is still my top FA choice (well other than the pipe dream of AD) I view Langston Galloway as a cheap fallback with a similar skill set.

                            I think the Knicks keep Gibson, BUT I'd really want a different 4/5 guy that has some range. Paul Millsap on a 1 year deal would be great. I'd like Serge Ibaka - pending more on length of the deal than price. I'd give him 25 mil per for like 2 years (Portis + Ellington money) rather than give a 3+ year deal.


                            Draft pick
                            FVV
                            RJ
                            Randle
                            Mitch

                            Frank
                            Bullock
                            Dot
                            Knox
                            Millsap/Ibaka (which would likely be getting "starter" mins at 4/5)

                            Plus draft pick #2, 2nd rounder, then you've still got Iggy, Wooten, Harper (can they just dump Smith?).

                            Not a world beater roster, but there's a lot flex there across the roster.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              I get the appeal of Fvv... but really don't think he will let go by raptors..with the way he has been playing..last I heard he loved it there so really think an alternate plan has to planned..Bullock is a no brainer for the price he will cost..and with Thibs..Gibson pretty much is a returnee I feel.. ibaka would be ideal.. so...that leaves rest..Not be shocked to see Leon do something trade wise for a proven wing..
                              Options tbd..wouldn't be shocked if its heild.. this is all with assumption pg is taken with lottery pick..if its deni...then Leon may target a vet pg..(cp3?)
                              ACCEPTED TRUTH: That I will be ROYALLY F**CKED OVER by EVERY TEAM I ROOT FOR (METS, JETS & KNICKS) !!!

                              Citifield & Mets...the place where Sluggers Careers go to DIE"

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTLzr2Al_Os

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                If the Bulls get up high enough for a Ball, I could see LaVine being on the block and I think thats a highly likely target...I just dont want him. I have no clue what Sac is going to do with Vlade out and Dumar (or maybe Perry in) I think Rose (and probably Thibs) WANTS to make a move...I just hope they take a deep breath and wait it out 1 more year. I'm not saying don't participate at all...I'm just saying keep it to the FAs. Don't look to move talent until we see that talent under Thibs and keep picks!

                                If FVV doesn't leave so be it....make it a burner contract for Toronto to match and f that team over. Like I said I'd go Brogdon+ money for him. Maybe Dragic on a 1 year deal instead.

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