What is wrong with Wagner

LAS VEGAS DAVE · 07-07-2008, 09:22 AM

OK.... besides the obvious responses like "he sucks", he "buckles under pressure" etc etc etc, here are my thoughts....

Many tears ago I asked my buddy Vidro who would he prefer to face, Armando Benitez at close to 100mph or Mariano at 94mph. His reply was quick.... Benitez.

I was told that even though Benitez through very hard, it was as straight as a needle. Mariano's pitches, on the other hand, had so much movement, that is was extremely hard to follow.

Wagner used to be one of those in the 100mph range. Years ago he was able to overpower batters on speed speed and speed. Because of the 100 mph faster and probably a little natural movement that lefties tend to have, he was able to "dominate"

Now in the 92-94 consistent range, his straight fastball has lost effectiveness. His slider is "ineffective" and he has no other "good" pitch to show for. So what happens, batters are sitting on his fastball and whenever he throws a slider and hangs it, it gets hit hard.

Wagner is primarily, a la Perez, a 2 pitch pitcher. Which as a relief pitcher is OK if you have an overpowering fastball or a fastball with movement. Right now he has neither. Considering he usually starts 1-0 on every batter, this doesn't help either as it provides the batter with a better approach at the plate.

Wagner needs to "show" another pitch that he can use as an out pitch. An effective change-up could do the job because I don't think his speed is coming back. Maybe even work on a 2 seamer and/or different grips on the ball. He needs a "rising" or "sinking" fastball, or a "running" fastball and I believe he has neither at the moment. If not, batters will be sitting on his straight fastball or his "lazy" slider.

Having worked with pitchers for many years, as a pitching coach this is what I would be looking at and trying to make an adjustment. I don't think his lack of success is a coincidence... it's a matter of not making the right adjustments.

mike rithjen · 07-07-2008, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAS VEGAS DAVE

OK.... besides the obvious responses like "he sucks", he "buckles under pressure" etc etc etc, here are my thoughts....

Many tears ago I asked my buddy Vidro who would he prefer to face, Armando Benitez at close to 100mph or Mariano at 94mph. His reply was quick.... Benitez.

I was told that even though Benitez through very hard, it was as straight as a needle. Mariano's pitches, on the other hand, had so much movement, that is was extremely hard to follow.

Wagner used to be one of those in the 100mph range. Years ago he was able to overpower batters on speed speed and speed. Because of the 100 mph faster and probably a little natural movement that lefties tend to have, he was able to "dominate"

Now in the 92-94 consistent range, his straight fastball has lost effectiveness. His slider is "ineffective" and he has no other "good" pitch to show for. So what happens, batters are sitting on his fastball and whenever he throws a slider and hangs it, it gets hit hard.

Wagner is primarily, a la Perez, a 2 pitch pitcher. Which as a relief pitcher is OK if you have an overpowering fastball or a fastball with movement. Right now he has neither. Considering he usually starts 1-0 on every batter, this doesn't help either as it provides the batter with a better approach at the plate.

Wagner needs to "show" another pitch that he can use as an out pitch. An effective change-up could do the job because I don't think his speed is coming back. Maybe even work on a 2 seamer and/or different grips on the ball. He needs a "rising" or "sinking" fastball, or a "running" fastball and I believe he has neither at the moment. If not, batters will be sitting on his straight fastball or his "lazy" slider.

Having worked with pitchers for many years, as a pitching coach this is what I would be looking at and trying to make an adjustment. I don't think his lack of success is a coincidence... it's a matter of not making the right adjustments.

I couldn't agree more.

Like many atheletes, Billy still feels that he can reach back and get more. And, some days, he can. As you stated though, he is not the 24 year old BW that used to rock and fire and blow you away.

He is also not pitching inside enough. People are much too comfortable (even leftys) to be facing a closer like he is.

Closers have blown saves...it happens....but Wagner's stretch over the last month or so is concerning....at the least.

Kid A · 07-07-2008, 09:51 AM

Hasnt Wagner been mixing in a change all year?

Medfordian Slip · 07-07-2008, 10:27 AM

I think he goes to the well too many times. He'll get two strikes on a guy using a certain pitch, and then go to the same pitch again and again. The batter will foul a few off, and then POW!

He doesn't mix it up enough.

metman · 07-07-2008, 10:59 AM

Well, even with 100mph stuff (though, your post is dead on and well thought out), he never had the moxie or mental toughness to get the BIG save. Ask Philly fans let alone Astro fans. So, combine not having that 6th tool with his lack of stuff + compensate for age and you get this end result.

But hey, good to see him in the All Star game instead of Jose Reyes :/

mets84 · 07-07-2008, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAS VEGAS DAVE

OK.... besides the obvious responses like "he sucks", he "buckles under pressure" etc etc etc, here are my thoughts....

Many tears ago I asked my buddy Vidro who would he prefer to face, Armando Benitez at close to 100mph or Mariano at 94mph. His reply was quick.... Benitez.

I was told that even though Benitez through very hard, it was as straight as a needle. Mariano's pitches, on the other hand, had so much movement, that is was extremely hard to follow.

Wagner used to be one of those in the 100mph range. Years ago he was able to overpower batters on speed speed and speed. Because of the 100 mph faster and probably a little natural movement that lefties tend to have, he was able to "dominate"

Now in the 92-94 consistent range, his straight fastball has lost effectiveness. His slider is "ineffective" and he has no other "good" pitch to show for. So what happens, batters are sitting on his fastball and whenever he throws a slider and hangs it, it gets hit hard.

Wagner is primarily, a la Perez, a 2 pitch pitcher. Which as a relief pitcher is OK if you have an overpowering fastball or a fastball with movement. Right now he has neither. Considering he usually starts 1-0 on every batter, this doesn't help either as it provides the batter with a better approach at the plate.

Wagner needs to "show" another pitch that he can use as an out pitch. An effective change-up could do the job because I don't think his speed is coming back. Maybe even work on a 2 seamer and/or different grips on the ball. He needs a "rising" or "sinking" fastball, or a "running" fastball and I believe he has neither at the moment. If not, batters will be sitting on his straight fastball or his "lazy" slider.

Having worked with pitchers for many years, as a pitching coach this is what I would be looking at and trying to make an adjustment. I don't think his lack of success is a coincidence... it's a matter of not making the right adjustments.

Though Werth hit a hanging slider out yesterday, I will say that his fastball, while hitting 95, looked even straighter than usual. Normally there's at least a little giddyup, but yesterday it just looked flat.

mets84 · 07-07-2008, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metman

But hey, good to see him in the All Star game instead of Jose Reyes :/

Jose lost out to Guzman and the "every team needs somebody" rule, which is fine (being a fan of a team that's been mostly horrendous throughout its history, I have no problem with that), but if there's a Met in the final five voting, it should be him... I can't remember the last time Wright came through in a big spot. Wright's having that classic "the RBIs look good, but there's countless key errors and failures in big spots" season.

Jose's had some brain farts, but overall he's having a great season. Whereas Wright is a bit of a disappointment, given the way he finished last season. Who knows, it could be a cycle with these two; next year Jose disappoints and Wright is back in the MVP running.

metman · 07-07-2008, 11:19 AM

I agree. Wright hasn't done **** other than being white and marketable (re: being deserving of an all star selection).

RBI's are way too over-rated and Jose is the most dynamic talent in the NL and will always get ignored for stiff dull rbi drones who can't even field their position and belong in LF or DH.

Voodoo · 07-07-2008, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mets84

Though Werth hit a hanging slider out yesterday, I will say that his fastball, while hitting 95, looked even straighter than usual. Normally there's at least a little giddyup, but yesterday it just looked flat.

Yet the result may have still been better had he thrown a fastball instead of the slider. He at least got Werth to swing and miss at the fastball because Werth started too early.

mets84 · 07-07-2008, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo

Yet the result may have still been better had he thrown a fastball instead of the slider. He at least got Werth to swing and miss at the fastball because Werth started too early.

Agreed, the fastball wasn't the primary problem yesterday, but it was a little disturbing to watch him throw and be so thoroughly unimpressed by his heat.

LAS VEGAS DAVE · 07-07-2008, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metman

Well, even with 100mph stuff (though, your post is dead on and well thought out), he never had the moxie or mental toughness to get the BIG save. Ask Philly fans let alone Astro fans. So, combine not having that 6th tool with his lack of stuff + compensate for age and you get this end result.

But hey, good to see him in the All Star game instead of Jose Reyes :/

Darn did I make a lot of spelling mistakes.I must have been still asleep. Oh well, I am better off with spelling mistakes than blown saves

BTW the fact that he doesn't pitch to spots is also a problem like already mentioned. He wants to overpower everyone and he just can't do that!

And you're right.... he has had "problems" when he needs to be "tough" even before coming to the Mets when he was younger.

07-07-2008, 09:22 AM	#1 (permalink)
LAS VEGAS DAVE Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 881	What is wrong with Wagner OK.... besides the obvious responses like "he sucks", he "buckles under pressure" etc etc etc, here are my thoughts.... Many tears ago I asked my buddy Vidro who would he prefer to face, Armando Benitez at close to 100mph or Mariano at 94mph. His reply was quick.... Benitez. I was told that even though Benitez through very hard, it was as straight as a needle. Mariano's pitches, on the other hand, had so much movement, that is was extremely hard to follow. Wagner used to be one of those in the 100mph range. Years ago he was able to overpower batters on speed speed and speed. Because of the 100 mph faster and probably a little natural movement that lefties tend to have, he was able to "dominate" Now in the 92-94 consistent range, his straight fastball has lost effectiveness. His slider is "ineffective" and he has no other "good" pitch to show for. So what happens, batters are sitting on his fastball and whenever he throws a slider and hangs it, it gets hit hard. Wagner is primarily, a la Perez, a 2 pitch pitcher. Which as a relief pitcher is OK if you have an overpowering fastball or a fastball with movement. Right now he has neither. Considering he usually starts 1-0 on every batter, this doesn't help either as it provides the batter with a better approach at the plate. Wagner needs to "show" another pitch that he can use as an out pitch. An effective change-up could do the job because I don't think his speed is coming back. Maybe even work on a 2 seamer and/or different grips on the ball. He needs a "rising" or "sinking" fastball, or a "running" fastball and I believe he has neither at the moment. If not, batters will be sitting on his straight fastball or his "lazy" slider. Having worked with pitchers for many years, as a pitching coach this is what I would be looking at and trying to make an adjustment. I don't think his lack of success is a coincidence... it's a matter of not making the right adjustments.

07-07-2008, 09:51 AM	#3 (permalink)
Kid A Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,334	Hasnt Wagner been mixing in a change all year? __________________ We're just really, really lousy capitalists...JT "The only true currency in this bankrupt world... is what you share with someone else when you're uncool."

07-07-2008, 10:27 AM	#4 (permalink)
Medfordian Slip Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Omar - please get a real bullpen and an outfielder Posts: 1,745	I think he goes to the well too many times. He'll get two strikes on a guy using a certain pitch, and then go to the same pitch again and again. The batter will foul a few off, and then POW! He doesn't mix it up enough. __________________ Cramped, dirty, smelly...Yankee Stadium is every bit the dump Shea Stadium is, only with less room to move around. Good riddance to the House Steinbrenner rebuilt. Busyman

07-07-2008, 10:59 AM	#5 (permalink)
metman Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 5,608	Well, even with 100mph stuff (though, your post is dead on and well thought out), he never had the moxie or mental toughness to get the BIG save. Ask Philly fans let alone Astro fans. So, combine not having that 6th tool with his lack of stuff + compensate for age and you get this end result. But hey, good to see him in the All Star game instead of Jose Reyes :/ __________________ SHUT Your FESTERING GOB...You TIT!

07-07-2008, 11:19 AM	#8 (permalink)
metman Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 5,608	I agree. Wright hasn't done ** other than being white and marketable (re: being deserving of an all star selection). RBI's are way too over-rated and Jose is the most dynamic talent in the NL and will always get ignored for stiff dull rbi drones who can't even field their position and belong in LF or DH. __________________ SHUT Your FESTERING GOB...You TIT!**

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