Rey-YES

I've seen a lot of posts ripping Beltran for being "soft" and not willing to play through pain. And a lot of others ripping SS for the opposite---playing while in pain, or at least hampered by injury.

Beyond these two, players like Zambrano and Soler played in pain, and others sat with what various posters felt were injuries too minor to miss action.

Obviously, when the pain is extreme, rest or DL is required. I'm talking about the in-between, borderline situations.

Question: Where to draw the line. Would you rather a player sit when he feels he's not 100% (as long as he doesn't go into Pavano-mode), or play when he's limited by the pain?

My position is that it should be the player's call.

Yours?

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TPFKABM

15 Day DL Alou

Well here is the thing Schoenweiss injury apparently has no bearing on his pitching, at least that is what he says.

Zambrano and Soler well kind of suck.

And Beltran needs to see a doctor because he might have a disease.

Masters of Superiority

Considering he was playing through pain (including that of conking noggins with Cameron after running full speed) throughout 2005, and was booed mercilessly for not performing up to snuff, I can understand him saying eff you, I'm going to rest when I need to in order to stay healthy when I'm out there.

When the team is in dire need of his presence and he's got some aches and pains that don't allow him to play at full capacity, I'm sure he'll be out there. Thing is, the team is in first place by three and a half games, and it's early June, so the "we need him badly" thing just isn't going to be an issue until its late in the year, and they're either in 2nd place, or the Braves or Phillies are nipping at their heels.

I'll cut him some slack in this department. He was a gamer after that collision. And all it got him were more boos, and the raised eyebrows of the media for underperforming.

Some could argue that now is important, with the starting outfield being down two starters...and he's out there, and I don't think he's anywhere near 100%.

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"Here's the pitch, slow and straight...
All I have to do is swing and I'm a hero...
But I'm a zero..."

-- Weezer, "Perfect Situation"... and the 2008 Mets

Paulie Cee

If he was one of those guys (like Reyes) who wants to play even if a bone is showing and needs the manager to sit him down he'd get a lot more love. A guy who bruises his knee and then takes a week off is a pu$$y, plain and simple.

Rey-YES

What I was looking for is more general, rather than specific players and their talent level. If a guy plays in pain (actually, SS said the pain DOES bother him, but at varying levels day-to-day), but under-performs, should he be applauded for "guts" or ripped for "hurting the team"?

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TPFKABM

lgm6986

If he is playing then for all intents and purposes he isn't hurt. If the extent of his injury is such that sometimes it hurts him too much to perform then he belongs on the DL until it doesn't.

uphill struggle

when he sucks and ****s up the game is that when it flares up? is it ok when he gets out of a jam?

Masters of Superiority

Tell that to Kirk Gibson and his pumping fist.

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"Here's the pitch, slow and straight...
All I have to do is swing and I'm a hero...
But I'm a zero..."

-- Weezer, "Perfect Situation"... and the 2008 Mets

lgm6986

You know what? If he had whiffed against Eckersley and used his injury as an excuse afterwards I would've thought he was full of it too.

Rey-YES

That's just flat-out wrong. As Paulie said, Jose would play even if a bone was showing. That doesn't mean he's not hurt.

Leo Durocher once had a player (Pete Reiser) fracture his skull crashing into a wall (no padding), but refused to let him come out of the game. Afterwards, X-rays showed the fracture and he was DL'd, but he did finish the game.

Some players have greater pain tolerance than others, but that doesn't mean they "aren't hurt".

Others may need a few days off, but don't need the DL. And others need the DL.

Saying there's no middle ground between "not hurt" and "DL" makes no sense.

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TPFKABM

lgm6986

What I mean is this:

If you are playing through pain then you forfeit the right to use your injury as an excuse for sucking. If you feel you may suck because of your injury then don't play. Once the game starts no one is going to have any sympathy for you, so you better be able to produce, pain and all. If not, don't play.

Rey-YES

How about if he lined a "single" to RF, but was thrown out because his could barely run?

In '73, before the DL rule, Rusty Staub played RF in the WS with a badly injured throwing shoulder because they needed his bat. Was that an acceptable "excuse" for not throwing out a runner at the plate on a Sac Fly?

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TPFKABM

lgm6986

But now you are talking about players who were injured during the World Series. They can't be replaced on the roster and the season is literally on the line. It has no relation to your original questions regarding players missing a few days in June.

Rey-YES

OK, that makes sense. But forgetting about the player blaming the pain, if he plays hurt but keeps his mouth shut it can still limit his effectiveness. Because he doesn't use it as an excuse doesn't mean it isn't a real factor.

Is it better for the team if he begs out and sits, or if he plays at 50-60%?

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TPFKABM

Rey-YES

They can't be replaced on the roster in mid-series, but they can be in the line-up, or before the next series. How about last year, when Cliff refused to beg out of the NLCS? Did he help the Mets by playing hurt? If Trachsel had not "quit" when he was hit, but gave up 5 more runs by being "gutsy", would that have been a good thing for the team?

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TPFKABM