And the body armor saga continues....

[Mule]

FOXNews.com - Marines Call New Body Armor Heavy, Impractical - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News

BAGHDAD, Iraq — The Pentagon and Marine Corps authorized the purchase of 84,000 bulletproof vests in 2006 that not only are too heavy but are so impractical that some U.S. Marines are asking for their old vests back so they can remain agile enough to fight.

Marine Commandant Gen. James Conway wants to know who authorized the costly purchase of the nearly 30-pound flak jackets and has ordered the Marine procurement officers at the Quantico base in Virginia to halt the rest of an unfilled order, FOX News has learned.

"I’m not quite sure how we got to where we are, but what I do know is it is not a winner," Conway told FOX News at the end of his recent trip to Iraq.

"I think it is foolish to buy more."

Twenty-four thousand more vests were scheduled to be shipped to Iraq in the coming months, but Conway halted that order during his trip.

"I’ve asked them to tell me — to walk me through — the whole process ... how it evolved," Conway said.

"It goes back a couple of years. I think the vest has its advantages. It fits pretty well on the waist. The weight is distributed more evenly on the hips than shoulders, but Marines don’t like it. I didn’t like it when I put it on."

The protective jackets, manufactured by Protective Products International in Sunrise, Fla., are known as Modular Tactical Vests, or MTVs. With heavy plates, known as sappis, on their sides, they provide more coverage than the older vests. That makes them much safer but also much heavier. The MTVs have more protection than the older "Interceptor," made by Point Blank, and they distribute weight more evenly.

The new vests, weighing in at about 30 pounds each, are three lbs. more than previous regulation body armor. Marines, who are already carrying up to 95 lbs. depending on the mission, say they feel the difference.

The vest slips over the head, but one Marine said that because of its weight, it often rips the skin off one’s nose and scrapes the ears.

It also has a rip cord that allows for quick release should the fighter fall into water. But many Marines say the cord is hard to reach and often gets caught on equipment in their vehicles. They say it literally falls apart; one Marine said it was like getting caught in battle with your pants around your ankles.

Marines are issued an instructional video to learn how to use the vest properly.

The Marine commandant and his sergeant major, Carlton Kent, became aware of the problem during a Thanksgiving visit to Iraq. At town hall meetings, few Marines raised their hands when asked if they liked the new equipment.

Conway and his team refused to wear the vests during their visit to Iraq last week due to their weight and impracticality.

Marine Corps Systems Command, in a written statement to FOX News, said it responded in January 2006 to an Urgent Universal Need Statement from the field for better protective gear and awarded the contract in September 2006 after a series of user conferences at Quantico and in consultation with the Marine Expeditionary Forces.

The order was placed before Conway became commandant in November 2006.

Marine spokesman Lt. Col. TV Johnson said the problem with the vests is not that they are unsafe or impractical.

"Marines are still able to run and climb walls with the gear. The fact that the additional protection adds weight, and that the means of getting in and out of it "over-the-head" seem to be the chief complaints," Johnson told FOX News in an email.

"In Desert Storm, we wore flack jackets that were a fraction of the weight of the lighter vest we wore before the MTV. They wouldn't, however, stop a bullet or even a knife, so if I were going to a gunfight, I know what piece of gear I'd take," said Johnson.

Yet another example of listening to the popular b.s. of the times rather than the grunts in the field. Everyone I've talked to says the MTV is not only heavy, it's longer in the torso, thicker and much more restrictive in movement than the "old" IBA. But it's better on paper and that means our troops gotta have it or MSNBC will complain.

Also, the "rip cord" purpose isn't so much if you fall into water, as much as if you get wounded, and they need to get it off you in a hurry to treat you.

[Wright 5]

LOL - blaming it on the media?

Come on Mule, Military procurement has ALWAYS been a joke, popular sensitivity aside.

[Mule]

Are you kidding me? You must have forgotten the body armor and humvee mess from '04-'05? The whole body armor saga has been media/PR driven from the get-go. I'm well aware of the giant pork barrel that is the procurement process, but this wouldn't even be news if the press hadn't short stroked themselves all over it 3+ years ago as an example of how we "weren't taking care of the troops."

[Metboi]

Originally Posted by Mule

Are you kidding me? You must have forgotten the body armor and humvee mess from '04-'05? The whole body armor saga has been media/PR driven from the get-go. I'm well aware of the giant pork barrel that is the procurement process, but this wouldn't even be news if the press hadn't short stroked themselves all over it 3+ years ago as an example of how we "weren't taking care of the troops."

Isn't this just a case of poor design? Why scrap the idea of better armor altogether? Just ditch the morons who shipped this stuff without adequate testing and feedback.

[Mule]

Well, yes, but who's pushing the design for side trauma plates, fuller "coverage", etc.? You have to think, is this stuff being "pulled" by the end users (whether they are grunts or whomever) or "pushed" from the pogue/PR side because of pressure from Congressmen and the media coverage?

There was a big push for side trauma plates about a year or so after the switch from maneuver warfare to insurgency warfare, when sniper casualties started to rise. When insurgent snipers started finding out that front & back trauma plates could take a 7.62x54mm Russian round (most common insurgent sniping caliber) they started targeting the biceps area from the side, because a round through your bicep from a proper angle will go right through the soft armor into the boiler room. The thought was side trauma plates in the armpit area would prevent that. What you got was armor with a stiff plate shoving it's way up your armpit that was too uncomfortable to wear and couldn't maneuver in as well, so guys started taking out their side trauma plates and leaving them back in the barn.

Then someone thought that instead of standing around getting shot at, maybe we should change our countersniper tactics instead, and sniping casualtes dropped drastically.

(Note: the above is a drastic oversimplification of this aspect sniping/countersniping for brevity, or I'd be writing a book here.)

This crap is a balancing act. You can't weigh a guy down so heavy he can't fight. The basic rule of thumb is that hauling anything more than a 1/3 of your bodyweight long term will eventually be debilitating, i.e. you'll start suffering load bearing injuries just from carrying your kit.

My favorite set-up was always a soft armor "plate carrier" with trauma plates front and back, but little side protection (level IIIa, handgun strength only basically, will stop low power rounds, some shrapnel/fragments, etc.) and no neck or groin protection. My fave set up weighed less than 30 lbs before gear and I felt like I could still maneuver and fight effectively in it.

I don't think we need to scrap the idea of better armor, but we need to examine why we're asking for it, who were asking it for, and what is "better". This stuff should be driven by the people using it, in this case the grunts on the ground, and not because of a good intentioned but misplaced wish by people here to make sure our "troops have the best".

[NeilAllen]

Originally Posted by Mule

(Note: the above is a drastic oversimplification of this aspect sniping/countersniping for brevity, or I'd be writing a book here.)

Speaking of books, here is an excellent one in that regard:

HOGs in The Shadows